Episode 239

How Fear Keeps You Small, And What It’s Costing You

Navigating Fear and Anxiety: Practical Steps for Growth and Resilience

SUMMARY

There are many fears that can hold people back in their journey to becoming amazing speakers and communicators. In this episode, John and coaching colleague James discuss how fear can be used as useful feedback rather than a stop sign. They explore lingering pandemic-related anxieties, physical manifestations of stress, and common fears such as failure or societal pressures. Together, they offer practical techniques for reframing fear into usable energy and taking small, safe steps towards a supportive environment. Additionally, they emphasise the importance of action, even small ones, to overcome fear and progress in personal growth and self-actualisation. They also touch on the significance of surrounding oneself with supportive people and environments. Both coaches share their personal experiences and offer support for listeners dealing with similar fears, providing valuable insights into how to transform fear into a force for personal development and success.

You can reach out to John from the info below, and if you would like to connect with James, you can email him at jameskilgarriff@gmail.com

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction: Embracing Fear as Feedback

00:07 Navigating Pandemic-Induced Fears

01:53 Personal Experiences with Fear and Anxiety

05:46 The Evolutionary Perspective on Fear

11:57 Reframing Fear: From Nerves to Excitement

16:07 The Importance of Embracing Change

21:36 Overcoming the Fear of Failure

22:21 Overcoming Failure and Self-Doubt

23:50 The Importance of Feedback

26:18 Surrounding Yourself with Supportive People

30:52 Managing Fear and Stress

32:01 Taking Action to Overcome Fear

36:24 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Visit presentinfluence.com/quiz to take the Speaker Radiance Quiz and discover your Charisma Quotient.

For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

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Thanks for listening, and please give the show a 5* review if you enjoyed it.

Transcript
John:

What if fear that comes up for you isn't a stop sign, but

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information that you can actually use.

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Feedback.

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In this conversation with my friend and

coaching colleague James, we take a look

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at some of the fears that maybe have been

lingering around since the pandemic and

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anxiety loops and some of the physical

manifestations of stress and anxiety like

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tight chest and brain fog and headaches.

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Also the stories about failure

or not being that person.

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You'll hear some practical

ways to work with it.

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Reframing nerves as usable

energy, taking small safe steps

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and choosing an environment

that helps rather than hinders.

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And some simple ways to steady yourself

when your body is on high alert.

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Now, between us, we've had to navigate

this journey personally and with

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clients, and no theory for theory's sake

here, really just what's helped us out

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and what we hope will also help you.

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So here's the chat James and I had

about fear and how to deal with it.

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felt like after last, last time's

conversation, went so well.

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We thought we'd come back

again and this time have a bit

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of a conversation about fear.

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And this is something I've

noticed coming up for me.

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Uh, maybe you experienced this as

well, James, with, with a number

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of clients on, on calls maybe.

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And personally as well.

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You know, I think there's nobody who

doesn't have to deal with the fear aspects

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of going forward with stuff, right.

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So

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James Killgariff: mean, for me, I've,

I've had a lot of dealings with fear and

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anxiety for the last three or four years.

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It's just all come up and I have

clients who are going through,

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you know, uncertainty, fear,

how do you manage that stuff?

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It's, it's scary when it comes up.

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So, yeah, I've, I'm, I'm actually quite

an expert on fear because it's just

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been, it's, it's tried to run my life,

especially after the code, times of code.

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I don't know why, but, uh.

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Uh, but now I've kind of, um,

I see it more for what it is,

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but we'll talk more about that.

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John: I think that's, that's potentially

a, a really valid place to start

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because I think, you know, we all had

that experience of, of lockdowns and.

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COVID and it changed, changed

a lot of things for us.

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And whilst, whilst everything pretty

much had come back and there was,

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there was a lot of fear about are

we ever gonna be able to hug again?

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Are we ever gonna be able

to shake hands again?

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No.

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There was a lot of fear come out.

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Are we ever gonna have

normal meetings again?

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Or, um, are we ever gonna

be speaking in public again?

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Or those kinds of things we

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James Killgariff: if I was gonna kill me,

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John: Right.

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Is it gonna come back where?

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So are we actually gonna

be able to go to it?

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And, and then there was also, I think,

for a lot of people there was, there

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were these to be fears of after being

shut away, of coming back to everything.

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Like I, I experienced this particular,

one of the, the city where I live was

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so quiet and it's not normally quiet.

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You know, Valencia is not,

not usually a quiet city.

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And uh, and it was, it was

quiet during all those times.

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And, um, and, and I kind of got used

to it and, uh, and know even when we

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started being allowed out to go and

have walks at certain times and that

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sort of stuff, it was still quiet.

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And so, you know, I, I was, because I had

a private office, I was able to still go

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out to my office and the city was empty.

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You know, it's hardly anyone around.

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And it, it just felt so different when,

when everyone started coming back.

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It was a big shock to the system.

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And, um, and, and definitely maybe

there was even, I think there's even

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some fear around that as well of,

uh, this is a, a huge change and I'm

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not even sure how I feel about it.

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And so I think all these shock to the

system, all these fears, the uncertainty

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is often what's behind a lot of that.

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But also what we get used to, what we

get comfortable with, um, we start to

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have resistance to that or to losing it.

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I think, uh, for a lot of

people, fear really comes from

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this place of losing something.

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'cause we generally are far more afraid of

what we're gonna, what we're potentially

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going to lose than anything else.

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Would you agree?

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James Killgariff: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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The, the, the fear of lost, uh, for

the pandemic, it, it, that the fears

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brought the fear, I don't know.

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I don't know what was, it brought

up old fear of my early years as

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a kid, but it was a, a trigger.

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It was a trigger response, which I

never, ever, ever, ever imagined.

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And, uh, I guess what fear

is, is anticipation or

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confrontation for the brain.

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It's, you know, the fear

is trying to keep you safe.

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But it's, it's a bit outdated because

95% of the fears that we gen generate

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in our minds don't really exist.

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But they are.

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They exist in here.

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John: Right.

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James Killgariff: They

exist in here, alright.

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Some of it is useful if I, if

I'm, if I cross the road as a bus

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coming, well I better be careful

not, not to cross the road too quick

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'cause I'll get hit by the bus.

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But a lot of that is manufactured

and I know from my own experience

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how I manufactured so much fear.

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lot of it was stemming from

programs as a kid that were

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coming back to hold me as it were.

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John: Yeah,

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there, there

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James Killgariff: to

clear, clear up your act.

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It's also an opportunity to clear that

stuff up and let it go, and it's not easy.

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John: Yeah, ostensibly there is, there

is a genetic aspect to this a and to

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which we should probably be thankful

to our ancestors because if they

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hadn't had such honed fear responses,

they wouldn't have survived to have

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bred and for us to be here today.

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So, you know, the, the ancestors with, uh,

well probably not ancestors really, but

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the ancient peoples with the, um, lowered

fear response or with the faulty fear

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response probably didn't survive because

there was daily, um, physical danger.

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Now your life would be in danger on a

regular basis in those times where things

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were a lot more survival based perhaps.

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Uh, and so, you know.

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The thing is we don't need that

level of fear now in generally in

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modern life, but our brains have yet

to evolve past it, and I must think

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maybe there is some progress there.

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We still have a much higher fear response,

a much higher negative focus aspect

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in our brains, which historically has

been very helpful to survival, but now

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potentially impacts and interferes with

survival and success, particularly in,

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in going forward because we often end up

not taking the action or backing away or

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hiding away in an attempt to feel safe.

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James Killgariff: Yeah.

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And so that then becomes your paradigm

and you end up thinking, I'd rather

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be safe and quiet and hide away.

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Because if I, if I try and break out,

um, I'm gonna feel scared and unsafe.

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That's it.

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A lot of it from my experience

was that suddenly I, I, I,

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I associated safety with danger.

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If I'm safe.

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If I relax too much,

something bad's gonna happen.

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Says the mind

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John: Right.

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James Killgariff: again.

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It's the brain link linking,

linking beliefs, and, and it's

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happening at my lightning speed.

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Oh.

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Uh, so, so I, but, you know,

rational, think, well, I'm

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safe, there's something wrong.

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No, there's no one's gonna come

and beat me up or whatever.

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Everything's is fine, but we're

talking about irrational stuff.

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John: We are, and, and I think some of

the danger with this, and certainly I,

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I've had personal experiences, I think

probably we all have, we end up thinking

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it's something wrong with us or we end up

thinking that we are weak or we are broken

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or, or whatever it is that the reality

is, uh, we are not, we're just normal

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human beings who have the same issues as

everyone else, but, uh, maybe don't have

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the mechanisms or, uh, responses or, uh.

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The way forward.

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We don't, haven't, haven't got a guide

for the way forward as to how do we move

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outta this because I think ultimately

you, you want to keep yourself safe.

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It's a very natural human response, but.

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What ends up happening a lot of

the time is that you also end up

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then feeling frustrated and limited

and that you're not really living

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your life as fully as you could be.

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And that's a problem.

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That really, to me, that's the,

that's the bigger problem for

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me of people not being able to.

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Properly least sort of personal

development or not to be able to

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self-actualize and to, to raise themselves

up the ladder of self-actualization to

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become more than they are right now.

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Because without that ability to progress,

without that ability to move forward with

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things that would bring more fulfillment

in our lives, we're gonna feel empty.

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We're gonna feel limited, undoubtedly.

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James Killgariff: Yeah.

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I mean, there comes a uh, point

where you say, I'm gonna stop feeling

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afraid, even though I'm feeling shit

scared at the moment about things.

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You, you reach a point where it's

deep down you think enough is enough.

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So sometimes you need need

to reach a decision point.

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So I'm done with this.

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I'm still feeling scared.

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And also admit that if

you're scared, you're scared.

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If you're afraid, you're afraid

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John: Yeah.

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James Killgariff: life.

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It's just, it is just a thought.

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To me, it's a feeling,

but it's also a thought.

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So really what, what fear is, is

lots of thoughts or fear being

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translated into feelings, and

you have these body sensations.

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You mentioned about having a

headache the other week and so on.

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Me as well.

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Pressure in the head, uh,

tightness in the chest.

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I mean, the body's very clever

because it's just given you

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feedback as the way you're thinking.

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There's nothing wrong about about that.

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It's just the, the, the, the what?

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The body doesn't lie.

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The thoughts lie.

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Our thinking lies, as you said.

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There's nothing wrong with us.

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John: Yeah.

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James Killgariff: And one issue about the

personal development industry, you, you

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and I have been in it for years, is there

is, um, a, a, a belief there, there is

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something wrong with me and I'm flawed.

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Really deep down, it's a bit

like the wave in the ocean.

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You are the ocean, but

you think you're the wave,

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John: Right.

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James Killgariff: And there's

something wrong with the wave.

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No, you're actually the ocean.

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But we don't see it.

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We're too caught up with I am the wave.

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Well actually the wave in the

ocean's part of the same thing.

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But when you really see it that there is

actually nothing wrong with you or me.

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All it is, is our imagination,

our thoughts and our beliefs.

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That's the thing that's needs to be

looked at and, and, and let go of.

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John: Yeah, I definitely have never

liked the idea that we might be broken

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or, um, yeah, as you say, le less than

or yeah, we need to let go of those

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old ideas that something wrong with us.

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Um, we generally know when there is,

so we know because it's something that.

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We probably would need specialized

help to resolve if, if there is

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something that wrong with us.

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But I think because we have these

physical responses to stuff,

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it, it feels very, very real.

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And you bring up something really,

really valid, really important about,

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our brains are always, uh, checking

in on our emotions, being guided by

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our physical feelings and responses.

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And so.

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A lot of how we feel, a lot of our

emotional state is dependent on how our

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brain is interpreting what's going on in

our body, the feelings that are coming up.

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And, and this is particularly relevant

'cause one of the things that was

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definitely, I think was holding

me back and ended up being a big

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personal breakthrough for me was, uh,

when I first started learning to do.

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Public speaking, when I first

started learning to get on a

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stage and, and speak to people.

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'cause that's scary and most people

were saying, it's often listed as one of

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people's biggest fears is public speaking.

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And certainly, I, I had fear around it.

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But when I actually started doing it,

one of the reframes that comes up that

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I still use, I, I use it with my clients

because it is such a valuable reframe.

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It's a, a reframe on the interpretation

of your body signals, because the

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feeling of nerves before going up

on stage to speak is pretty much the

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same as the feeling of excitement.

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They, they are almost indistinguishable.

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So reframing that nervous feeling to a

feeling of excitement allowed me to go

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and do say, all right, I'm, I'm excited.

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I think that really sparked this

passion for speaking as well, which

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I, it does happen for a lot of people

who have this reframe of saying,

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alright, but your body's giving these

responses, but how you can choose

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how you're gonna interpret them.

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And that's really

powerful to know you can.

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You can redefine, you can reframe your

own brain's interpretation of its bodily

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signals in certain situations that

might, or that you would've interpreted

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previously as a massive fear response.

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The kind of fear response that I've

seen has people sometimes running

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away from a stage in tears because

they just can't do it, um, because

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they haven't been able to reframe this

as, as excitement rather than fear.

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James Killgariff: like that when I'm,

I'm speaking within group coaching.

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Remember when I first started, I was

quite scared about in front of all

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these people in group coaching, but

I just thought, wow, what a growth

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opportunity this is the reframe.

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Um, my mind says, no,

no, you're not up for it.

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You're not good enough.

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Who's gonna listen to you?

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Blah, blah, blah.

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All that story, but.

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In spite of that, I thought,

wow, this is an opportunity.

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Because the more fear I feel, the more

there is a, we're talking about the burn.

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I'm in the burn right now.

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It's like going to the gym.

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Wow.

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More fear.

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That means there's, there's an opportunity

to garner a bit more power in myself.

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Don't like it.

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But as you say, getting up on

stage, speaking to all these

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people, it's a scary thing.

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John: Yeah, people, uh, people often talk

about fear of success and fear of failure.

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This is generally the terms in

which I hear my clients frame.

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This may, maybe you've heard

that as well from clients, but,

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um, usually it's those two.

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I have fear of failure.

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I have fear of success that I think

they're the, they're the wrong frames.

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I don't think that's actually

what they're afraid of.

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I think fear of failure is fear of loss.

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It's fear of.

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Fear of loss of status

as much as anything else.

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And fear of success is, is a kind of

loss as well because it's a loss of your

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current identity to have to shift into

something that you have uncertainty about

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right now, which is a version of you that

you don't know that you can be just yet.

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And that's the real fear is like the fear

of making that kind of shift and the loss

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of who you are or where you are right now.

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And, and to some degree, the loss of.

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The loss of certainty as much

as we can ever have that in our

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lives, our brains like to be able

to predict what's coming next.

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We know more or less day to

day what we're gonna be facing.

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We know more or less what

kind of experiences we're

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gonna be having day to day.

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And when things take us outta

what is easily predictable, we get

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taken outta that sense of security.

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That sense of wellbeing.

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A comfort, if you like, we call

it, we can call it the comfort

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zone 'cause it kind of is.

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We get placed into uncertainty, and

that's where we have the threats

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of loss, the threats of change, the

threats of, um, things going beyond

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what we're comfortable with or what

we can competently or confidently

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deal with, and the fear kicks in.

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That's my framework.

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Would you agree with that

or is there anything you'd

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James Killgariff: You know,

you mentioned about identity.

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You know, if you are looking to get

to the next level, whether it's your

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health, your business, whatever, in

a way, you've gotta let go of an old

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identity and, and identity's a story.

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But it's so convincing.

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Who the hell am I gonna

be without my story?

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It's a scary prospect for the brain.

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'cause you dunno what, it's a bit like

going from a caterpillar to a butterfly.

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The caterpillar has no idea

what a butterfly looks like.

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It goes through this tremendous process

of metamorphosis and so on in the

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cocoon, and then it, and it comes out.

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But, um, our brains want to

keep us in the comfort zone.

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But the thing is the growth

happens outside the comfort zone.

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And that's one big thing

in the person development.

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Well, we'll have, but you, you know,

um, if you think you're gonna grow

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and you want guarantees and you

want everything to be, um, safe.

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Well, you ain't gonna grow.

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John: Yeah, exactly.

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The.

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We are not the first people

to be thinking about this.

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There's no doubt about that.

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And it does remind me of that.

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It is really, I think it's kind of a,

an ancient sort of, um, uh, phrase if

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you like, or, or you call it parable

or you know, the, the idea of you

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can't step into the same river twice

because you are, you are not the

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same person and the river isn't the

same river, it's not the same water.

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Um, that, that is life.

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So.

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Is the saying, they're like, well,

you don't want to change, but you

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will because change is inevitable.

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Uh, you don't really want to be

the same person next week as you

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are this week because you grow,

you learn new things, you develop.

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We are not the same person we were

yesterday or last week or the month,

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last month or last year, and on and on.

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We develop, we change, oh.

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Um, this whole idea of like this concept

of our personality being fixed or

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permanent isn't true because we do change.

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We can sometimes change massively.

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We can have really massive shifts

that could change, um, our own

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and other people's ideas, concepts

of who we are potentially.

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And that can be for good and

for bad, obviously, but it

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can go in both directions.

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But.

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The change, the potential is, is

there, but we are often so locked

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in, in this story and it is just a

story, as you say, of, of who we are.

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That gives us comfort.

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That often.

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We'll, we'll stay there because we can

confidently say, oh, this is who I am.

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This is who I feel comfortable.

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And without having to challenge ourselves,

without having to feel that we have to

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grow and develop it, but it will change.

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Change will happen whether

you resist it or not.

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But the thing is, if you don't do

this or you don't go with it, if you

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do resist it, really the way that

you're gonna go is, is stagnation.

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Trying to stay where you are will result

in stagnation, it will result in a kind

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of slow death, if you like, or, um,

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James Killgariff: and then you feel

unhappy, and then you, then you get

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depressed, then you're in a rut,

then you procrastinate, and then it's

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:

like a, a momentum me Momentum either

goes that way or it goes that way.

355

:

John: Right.

356

:

James Killgariff: of

357

:

John: what happens, what happens

to water when it can't flow?

358

:

It becomes stagnant

359

:

James Killgariff: stagnant and, yeah.

360

:

Awful smells.

361

:

Yeah.

362

:

John: It smells bad.

363

:

All sorts of, all sorts

of horrible things.

364

:

It, it is, it's a good metaphor for us

when we, we are what we maybe made a, a

365

:

lot of is made after water, but, um, we

don't wanna become stagnant in our lives.

366

:

And, and I think many of us have

that experience in trying to stay

367

:

safe, trying to stay comfortable.

368

:

That really is it.

369

:

So it is, to me, the real,

the choice becomes very real.

370

:

Like I've, I got to a point in

my life years ago before I ever

371

:

got into personal development.

372

:

Where I recognized that I felt like

I was more of a passive observer

373

:

of life than an active participant.

374

:

I made the choice that I wasn't

happy about that, that I felt like

375

:

I really wanted and needed to be an

active participant in my own life.

376

:

And that decision changed so much for me.

377

:

Like the, the world shifted just on

that one decision for me, and things

378

:

were never the same after that.

379

:

So once you have expanded.

380

:

can't go back to where you were before.

381

:

You know, the, the whole shape

of who you are changes and you

382

:

can't go back to where you were.

383

:

And so we have to, we

have to be expanding.

384

:

But the question comes down to this of

how do you want to experience your life?

385

:

Do you want to experience your

life feeling safe and shut off from

386

:

everything and, and trying to stay

at the same level you are right now?

387

:

Or do you actually want to have growth

but you're just not sure that you

388

:

can achieve it or you might fail or

things could go wrong, but you want

389

:

to, you want to have those things.

390

:

Yeah, sure.

391

:

It'd be nice, but I'm not sure.

392

:

It's for me.

393

:

I'm not sure I'm up for it

or I can do it, you know?

394

:

I

395

:

James Killgariff: if I try something,

I'm gonna become disappointed,

396

:

so I don't do anything and

therefore, therefore I'm safe.

397

:

Or, um,

398

:

John: And potentially

399

:

James Killgariff: that's the mind.

400

:

The egos keeping you in

a small, small universe.

401

:

When there is, we're

much bigger than that.

402

:

I mean, every one of us are, we are huge,

but we just don't have a sense of that.

403

:

We are, as I say, it's a

bit like we are the ocean.

404

:

Not, not, not the wave.

405

:

We actually, we are both,

but we, we've forgotten.

406

:

We're the ocean, this vast

ocean, we are another metaphor.

407

:

We're the sky and then there's the clouds.

408

:

The clouds with the thoughts and then, but

we're this huge sky, but we've forgotten.

409

:

We're a sc the sky.

410

:

John: How many times have you heard

from clients that, um, they've,

411

:

they've tried it before and failed.

412

:

Hey, they said, wanna do this?

413

:

Yeah, but I tried before and I failed.

414

:

They're like, well, did you try again?

415

:

Did you, did you keep trying?

416

:

Because failure doesn't mean

you're not gonna get there.

417

:

Failure means you tried

something that didn't work.

418

:

Now that maybe didn't work because

you didn't put enough effort in.

419

:

Maybe it didn't work because it wasn't

the right time, or you weren't doing

420

:

the right things, or you didn't have

the right guidance or mentorship.

421

:

There could be a million reasons

why it didn't work, but why should

422

:

that mean that you don't try again?

423

:

What does that mean that

you don't go for it again?

424

:

James Killgariff: when, when kids learn

to walk, don't, they fall down about, I

425

:

don't know, a hundred times before they

start walking, they don't think about it.

426

:

They carry stand up or down, stand up.

427

:

But what happens is that we've got

all these programs and all these

428

:

stories and think, no, I tried it.

429

:

I tried, uh, starting this

business and it failed.

430

:

I must, I, I must be no good at it.

431

:

It runs in the family.

432

:

Um, my friends also tell me what my

hell am I doing trying to do this?

433

:

John: right.

434

:

James Killgariff: these, all these things.

435

:

And so, yeah.

436

:

Yeah, they're, they're probably right

'cause I failed and they, they've proved

437

:

to me I'm not, I'm, I'm not a success.

438

:

And other people will say, no, no.

439

:

I'm gonna try again.

440

:

You, I mean, at the end of

the day, you try shit out.

441

:

You keep trying and trying and trying

until you get your own little formula.

442

:

got their own little formula for success.

443

:

John: I I'm not saying that there aren't

times where you have a big fall and

444

:

something doesn't go right, and you maybe

need a little time to recover yourself.

445

:

Sure.

446

:

You know, I, I think we've all been there.

447

:

We, you have to give yourself some

grace there, but yeah, you absolutely

448

:

demonstrate there how, how easy it

is to buy into and reinforce these

449

:

stories we create about ourselves,

um, because they feel so real.

450

:

They feel so real, but they are

just stories in our head and

451

:

they don't have to stay that way.

452

:

But yeah, sure.

453

:

Maybe you'll try again and

maybe you'll fail again.

454

:

But that's life.

455

:

Right?

456

:

That's life.

457

:

What do you do as you say?

458

:

There's a, the child fall down

a few times as I, that's it.

459

:

I, I'm not never gonna be a walker.

460

:

I'm just gonna stay down

here and crawl on the ground.

461

:

James Killgariff: Stay out there

for whatever the rest of my life.

462

:

I mean, no.

463

:

Uh, no.

464

:

I mean, I heard once, there's

no such thing as failure.

465

:

Just feedback.

466

:

Feedback, okay.

467

:

This business, I tried this, the

feedback is I was in the wrong market.

468

:

Um, I didn't understand the market

dynamics, whatever the product

469

:

was to expend, just feedback.

470

:

John: and, and it is, and it's very

hard to think about, but sometimes,

471

:

but here's the thing, like feedback

sounds like it should be this

472

:

dispassionate thing, something that

we're not personally connected to.

473

:

Feedback is very personal.

474

:

It really is.

475

:

It is personal and it should be personal,

and you should take it personally.

476

:

As much as we say.

477

:

Don't take feedback personally.

478

:

You don't take it personally

because you need to grow from it.

479

:

You need to develop from it.

480

:

If you don't take it personally, I

think you're not taking it seriously.

481

:

You have to take it personally, but not to

the point where you need to be upset or.

482

:

You know, deal with, if, if emotions

come up for you, deal with it,

483

:

get through it, you will, you'll

get to the other side of it.

484

:

But if you are, if it gets to the

point where you say, oh, you take it so

485

:

personally that you get to a point where

you don't feel that you can hear feedback

486

:

again from somebody else, then okay.

487

:

Yeah.

488

:

You, you, uh.

489

:

You maybe need to take a step back

from taking stuff personally, but

490

:

there's lessons here for you that you

need to personally apply to your life.

491

:

And that's why I say take it personally.

492

:

Take it personally as in care about it.

493

:

Take it personally as in be hungry

for the feedback that people can give

494

:

you or that life can give you, but.

495

:

Keep going because this whole idea that

failure means that, uh, everything,

496

:

everything has gone to hell and

there's no way forward is false.

497

:

Failure isn't the opposite of success.

498

:

It's, it's just a stop on the

stop you make on the journey.

499

:

And sometimes we make that stop

more times than we care to, but

500

:

it's a stop we make on the journey

to greater success and sure.

501

:

You may well go through life.

502

:

It could happen that you go through life

never really hitting the success you want

503

:

to, but would you want to get to the end

of your life knowing that you'd at least

504

:

tried or think or thinking, looking back,

505

:

James Killgariff: gave it a go.

506

:

Didn't work

507

:

John: You gave up.

508

:

James Killgariff: Yeah.

509

:

But I, I am not, not, I am a failure.

510

:

That's just, okay.

511

:

I failed here, failed there.

512

:

I succeeded there.

513

:

I succeeded.

514

:

But ultimately, we're not, we're

not, we didn't come here as failures.

515

:

We

516

:

John: Right, and,

517

:

James Killgariff: weren't

518

:

John: become your identity.

519

:

James Killgariff: We become an identity.

520

:

You talked about limiter loops.

521

:

Uh, we talked about it the other

day and, and stuff like that.

522

:

So this, these loops keep going on.

523

:

I'm a failure.

524

:

I'm a failure.

525

:

The other thing you mentioned about

getting feedback from people, that's good

526

:

as long as the people are supportive.

527

:

What you don't want is to have

someone, a friend of yours

528

:

is complaining all the time.

529

:

And says, and you said, well, I had

this business and it didn't work.

530

:

You see?

531

:

I told you so.

532

:

Yeah.

533

:

I, so rather than, I mean, that's why I

do, we do coaching is like, we support

534

:

people and I say, go find a coach.

535

:

You want to find, if not, find

a, a, a supportive friend who's

536

:

gonna listen to you and give you,

you know, constructive feedback.

537

:

John: Yeah, look, you don't want

business advice from Barry down

538

:

the pub after he's had a few pints.

539

:

You know?

540

:

Um, it's not not gonna help you.

541

:

You, you want feedback from the right

places and from the right people, from,

542

:

from environments that, but it still needs

to be feedback that's gonna be useful.

543

:

But I still think most feedback can

be useful if you apply the right

544

:

frames to it, even from potentially

negative sources, um, because it, it

545

:

can help to give you that resolve.

546

:

Now I think if you do find yourself

completely surrounded by people who

547

:

don't get you, or don't get what

you're trying to do or don't support

548

:

you in any way, then you do need to

start finding some people that you

549

:

can have in your life or some groups.

550

:

Where you can at least spend some time

with people who are more positive, more

551

:

encouraging, maybe a bit further ahead

in the game than you are right now,

552

:

so that they can help to pull you up.

553

:

Um, because if you don't have that in your

life, if you need that, we all need that.

554

:

Our, our environment, as our

friend has says, your environment

555

:

is stronger than willpower.

556

:

James Killgariff: Exactly

557

:

John: So what you surround yourself

with will influence your outcomes.

558

:

Yeah.

559

:

James Killgariff: Now you mentioned

something about, 'cause you do speaking

560

:

on stage and uh, you mentioned about how

a particular speaking association, where

561

:

you live, how about particular view?

562

:

And then you spoke to somebody else who

had a, a much wider perspective, right?

563

:

So who you hang out with is who

you become, and she was much more.

564

:

Wider view rather.

565

:

Yeah.

566

:

Rather than this limited perception

about what you can do in terms

567

:

of making money as a speaker.

568

:

John: And, and I had bought into this

whole thing of, right, well, they're,

569

:

they're in this big speaking organization,

they must know what they're talking about.

570

:

And they don't know anyone who's at

the level that I would want to get to

571

:

as a speaker who's outside of the us.

572

:

And then I speak to this

other lady who's like, oh, no,

573

:

those, those speakers do exist.

574

:

They are real.

575

:

And uh, uh.

576

:

I needed to hear that.

577

:

I needed to know that that's real.

578

:

And she said, yeah, they're just not,

they're probably just not in that

579

:

organization or, or not very active in it.

580

:

And so those people

don't know who they are.

581

:

But, uh, so we buy into these stories.

582

:

That was just a story,

but it seemed very real.

583

:

And I was hearing from sources

who I assumed had knowledge

584

:

and understanding beyond mine.

585

:

That must be the case.

586

:

And then it turns out, eh, maybe not.

587

:

Maybe that's not, well, not,

maybe it's actually not the case.

588

:

Uh, and that limitation, uh,

ends up becoming self-imposed

589

:

without us even realizing

590

:

James Killgariff: Yeah.

591

:

Yeah, exactly.

592

:

John: so easy to buy into these things.

593

:

And, and the environment, uh,

who you spend time with, who

594

:

you talk to really does matter.

595

:

James Killgariff: yeah.

596

:

Yeah.

597

:

So you know, and if you have a fear so

that it's important to hang out with

598

:

the right kind of people, supportive

feedback, the right kind of feedback.

599

:

If you have a fear, let's just say that,

oh, I'm a failure because I tried this and

600

:

it didn't work, so I must be a failure.

601

:

Ask yourself the question, is that true?

602

:

It might just stop the mind from giving

you this loop you're talking about.

603

:

It may not, but no, I'm not

a failure 'cause I fail.

604

:

I succeeded this and that

and I, I succeeded in my,

605

:

in, in keeping myself fit.

606

:

I've succeeded in having a great marriage.

607

:

No, I'm not a failure, but I, maybe

I failed starting up my website

608

:

and doing this business, but, uh,

it's not true that I am a failure.

609

:

It's.

610

:

John: is your whole identity.

611

:

Yeah,

612

:

James Killgariff: things I

613

:

feel Yeah.

614

:

John: If you then go on and ask yourself,

um, is it possible that that isn't true?

615

:

Or can I find examples in my life

where I have not been a failure?

616

:

Yeah.

617

:

You, you will find, you will find those.

618

:

Nobody's going through their life,

failing at absolutely everything they do.

619

:

'cause they're not still here.

620

:

They failed at everything.

621

:

So they failed in survival.

622

:

Maybe that's, maybe that's one

of the few things you can find

623

:

that you, you haven't failed at.

624

:

You're still here, you're still going.

625

:

Um.

626

:

You haven't failed, but you, we can

all find examples in our life where

627

:

we haven't failed that, but it's like,

well, what would you want to be true?

628

:

What would you want the story to be?

629

:

Then can you start doing something

to move yourself towards that?

630

:

Because the one of the conversation

we were having before we go, and

631

:

this is really about how fear

can feel so physically real and

632

:

with all this talk about this,

how we associate it in our body.

633

:

Um, that the fear responses can

come up, uh, with stress, but

634

:

stress can manifest itself in

multiple ways that feel very real.

635

:

So it was talking about

that, the headaches.

636

:

I was getting brain

637

:

James Killgariff: nor I've got this,

nor nor nausea, bowel movements,

638

:

uh, tunnel vision, sweaty palms.

639

:

These are just, this is just a body

registering that you've got some

640

:

lots of fear thinking right now.

641

:

John: Right, but you can feel like there's

something physically wrong with you.

642

:

We were both saying you, you thought

there was something wrong with you.

643

:

I, I thought maybe I needed

an MRI or something last week

644

:

because I was, my head was.

645

:

My head was such a mess last week and

it was just this fear response that was

646

:

coming up and I couldn't fully control

it, but this time I recognized it.

647

:

Whereas I think previously I just

thought it was, um, something going on.

648

:

So headaches coming up or overload,

mental overload, didn't really

649

:

recognize it for what it was, but

ultimately that that was the thing.

650

:

So, you know,

651

:

James Killgariff: You

mentioned action, by the way.

652

:

Uh, if you don't act, then the

fear's just gonna keep you in a,

653

:

in a, in a little bubble, right?

654

:

So, uh, I, I, I, I talked about

how I did a list of all my fears

655

:

and I start with the small ones.

656

:

Like when I was in London, I had

a real kind of like anxiety about

657

:

going into London Underground,

the metro, especially busy times.

658

:

And my mind says, no, don't,

don't feel like doing it.

659

:

So I did it.

660

:

It was a small fear, but it,

it was palpable inside me.

661

:

And I, I did it for a few days and then

suddenly I thought, well, I can do this.

662

:

John: And.

663

:

James Killgariff: Or you

might fear of spiders.

664

:

Well be in the room with a spider.

665

:

Try, you know, edge into it.

666

:

Take action as it.

667

:

There was a book, uh, uh, written

years ago called The Magic of Thinking

668

:

Big, and he said, action cures Fear.

669

:

Well, when you do something about

the fear, the fear starts reducing.

670

:

The other thing is fear will always be

with me as long as I continue to grow.

671

:

John: yeah, yeah.

672

:

James Killgariff: you grow, the more

fear will come around to try and

673

:

say, stop you and say, no, no, no.

674

:

That's not who you are.

675

:

John: A hundred percent.

676

:

I agree that action, action is the

cure for fear, but it's not, it's not

677

:

always having to be, it doesn't always

have to be massive sweeping action.

678

:

'cause that becomes even

more scary sometimes.

679

:

But action.

680

:

And I used to follow a guy called, um.

681

:

Dan Millman is like the, um,

may have heard him the, uh,

682

:

obviously the peaceful warrior guy.

683

:

Yeah.

684

:

But, uh, and so I went to see

him speak in London one time.

685

:

Super nice guy.

686

:

And, uh, and, and one of the things

that he says is some of, is, some of his

687

:

talks is about, you know, sometimes the

action you take is just going for a walk.

688

:

Cleaning the house or something,

just so you're taking some action.

689

:

So you're, it's not always direct

action to the thing that you're doing,

690

:

but just getting into an action habit.

691

:

But it then, it, it needs to build

up to becoming more direct and, and

692

:

more, uh, direct directed to what you

want to, uh, move forward within life.

693

:

But sometimes we just need to

get ourselves doing something.

694

:

So if you are in a bit of a slump

or feeling the lethargy or shutting

695

:

yourself off because you're.

696

:

You know, you feeling the failure

and feeling all the, the world

697

:

is like been closing in on you.

698

:

Getting out for a walk in itself can

feel like an achievement is doing

699

:

something, but it's not so confronting it,

700

:

James Killgariff: right.

701

:

If not, you're seeing there

and get what's going on.

702

:

All this, you're in your head,

lots of noise in the head, and then

703

:

of course you don't do anything.

704

:

As you say, break the pattern.

705

:

Go for a walk out to the gym.

706

:

Cook a nice meal for

your partner, whatever.

707

:

Stand in one leg, something that's

gonna just change the energy.

708

:

John: Yeah.

709

:

And, and, and we can de,

we can definitely do that.

710

:

But, uh, yeah, the, the fear,

the fear response, although it

711

:

can, can feel very real and it is

ultimately coming up to protect us.

712

:

It doesn't have to define us.

713

:

In fact, it shouldn't define us.

714

:

And hopefully, you know, hopefully

just what we've been talking about

715

:

today is enough to help people realize

or start to recognize that it's not

716

:

your, it's not your whole identity or

failure isn't your identity and nothing,

717

:

nothing is your complete identity.

718

:

We are a myriad of things all in one, but

we can start to shift and change that.

719

:

And maybe we need to start shifting

and changing our environment as part

720

:

of that journey to achieving that.

721

:

But certainly, um, certainly directing

ourselves or having the awareness around

722

:

this, if you've got some kind of awareness

from what we've talked about today.

723

:

You have the ability to start

to make some change because

724

:

awareness is that first step.

725

:

Now you do need to take

action with that awareness.

726

:

James Killgariff: That's it and,

and sometimes we need support.

727

:

I mean, sometimes we are so scared

we need some support around us.

728

:

You know, sometimes

doing it alone is hard.

729

:

So sometimes you need a supportive

friend or whatever to help

730

:

you through and start small.

731

:

If you've got a big fear about

something, you know, let's say a

732

:

big fear is speaking on the stage.

733

:

I mean, it's massive.

734

:

We'll start with speaking in front of

the mirror, then speak to your partner.

735

:

Yeah,

736

:

John: Yeah, I generally don't

recommend seeking in front.

737

:

Don't recommend speaking

in front of the mirror, but

738

:

James Killgariff: what, what

something that is gonna move you in

739

:

the direction of being on the stage.

740

:

But don't just go onto the stage.

741

:

'cause it might be just too

overwhelming, but edge into it

742

:

John: I'd say go go to

a Toastmasters club.

743

:

You don't have to get a, you don't

have to get up on stage and speak.

744

:

You don't have to do anything,

but you just go and watch and

745

:

speak to some people and you've

taken a step in a, in a particular

746

:

James Killgariff: That's it.

747

:

John: you know?

748

:

Uh, but, you know, even, even

that could feel like a big.

749

:

A big challenge to things, but you know,

if, if you, if you are needing help

750

:

dealing with the uncertainty or you

know, you've been through some emotional

751

:

trauma, this feels very real for you.

752

:

James is a coach who specialized in

this stuff, so you might wanna reach

753

:

out and, and get in touch and, and get

some coaching on this, or, you know, if

754

:

you're looking for, uh, a breakthrough

as a, as a speaker or you want to get on

755

:

stages or push through in that kind of

way, um, then I can help you with that.

756

:

So, you know, you can reach out

to either of us for help and

757

:

support if that's gonna help you.

758

:

And, and I'll put some

details in, in the show notes.

759

:

In the description for you,

if you want to, if you want to

760

:

get in touch with either of us.

761

:

But our, our main hope and having this

conversation isn't try and get clear,

762

:

is to try and say, oh, um, can, can this

help somebody to at least have a bit of

763

:

awareness and potentially make a shift

and recognize what's really going on for

764

:

them in the lives and say, all right, I'm

not gonna sit here or just be in this.

765

:

I'm gonna make some change.

766

:

I'm gonna do something

that's gonna make my life.

767

:

Better than it is currently

and, and that's what we hope

768

:

comes from this conversation.

769

:

James Killgariff: Yeah.

770

:

The thing is, if people wanna make

comments, maybe, well, how do I do this?

771

:

How do I do that?

772

:

How do I calm myself down?

773

:

How do I emotionally regulate where,

well, we haven't got time in this,

774

:

in this podcast to talk about that.

775

:

We may talk about it, it depends.

776

:

But there are approaches that one

has to take to actually emotionally

777

:

re regulate as you're going

through this storm in the head.

778

:

John: Yeah, a hundred percent.

779

:

A hundred percent.

780

:

And stuff that, you know, uh, and so

we've got it all figured out ourselves.

781

:

We've just been through stuff and come

out the other side and we've helped

782

:

other people navigate this stuff as well.

783

:

It's things we still have to

deal with ourselves, you know, it

784

:

doesn't, stuff doesn't go away.

785

:

Um, but we just get better at

dealing with it, hopefully.

786

:

James Killgariff: that's it.

787

:

That's it, Johnny.

788

:

It was great.

789

:

Good talk.

790

:

John: Awesome.

791

:

Yeah.

792

:

Great stuff.

793

:

Thank you James.

794

:

Uh, we'll, we'll come back again,

no doubt and have another deep dive

795

:

conversation, but this has been fun.

796

:

Thank you.

797

:

So this chat today landed for you.

798

:

Do one small thing before the day ends.

799

:

Maybe take a walk, message a

supportive friend, book yourself

800

:

in for a Toastmasters meeting, or

maybe go along without even speaking.

801

:

Or I'll say hello to some people.

802

:

Be nice at least.

803

:

You could swap one unhelpful voice

in your feed for a useful one.

804

:

There's always the option

to just do nothing.

805

:

But really all that will do for you

is keep the loop alive and keep you

806

:

stuck in the same old cycles, but even

small actions can start to loosen it.

807

:

So if you want support, James helps people

regulate and move through uncertainty.

808

:

And I help speakers and

leaders perform under pressure.

809

:

You can find details to contact

either of us in the show notes

810

:

subscribe to the show and maybe

share with us one step that

811

:

you are taking to move forward.

812

:

Have an amazing week.

813

:

See you.

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About the Podcast

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Present Influence: The Professional Speaking Show
Speak to inspire. Influence with integrity. Lead with presence.

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About your host

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John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.