Episode 236

How to Make Boring Talks Engaging (and Why It Matters) with Joel Benge

Mastering Technical Talks: Joel Benge's Guide to Message Therapy

SUMMARY

In this episode of Present Influence, host John Ball speaks with Joel Benge, author of 'Be A Nerd that Talks Good,' and creator of the Message Therapy framework. Joel shares his technique for transforming technical presentations into memorable and impactful stories. Drawing from experiences at Nickelodeon, NASA, and the Department of Homeland Security, Joel discusses how to connect with any audience by striking a balance between logic, emotion, and credibility. Listeners will learn how to strip out jargon, build trust, and convey powerful messages, making even the most complex ideas stick. Joel also outlines his unique framework and tools like the Message Deck, which help speakers develop and structure their messages effectively. Tune in to discover how to make your technical talks unforgettable.

For Joel's prompt cards, book or more information, visit nerdthattalksgood.com

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction: Making Technical Talks Memorable

00:14 Meet Joel Benge: From Nickelodeon to NASA

01:45 Joel's Journey: From IT Geek to Communication Expert

03:55 The Power of Simplifying Technical Communication

05:47 Joel's Message Therapy: Helping Nerds Talk Good

15:58 The Framework: Head, Heart, and Gut

24:07 Building Connections: The Importance of Vulnerability

28:28 Crafting Effective Presentations: Objectives and Outcomes

35:35 Tools and Resources: Cards, Books, and More

41:16 Conclusion: The Impact of Clear Messaging

This episode was created in partnership with Podmatch, the best podcast guest-matching service, helping expert guests find the ideal podcasts to guest on. Head there now to book your next guest appearance: https://www.joinpodmatch.com/presentinfluence #podmatch

Visit presentinfluence.com/quiz to take the Speaker Radiance Quiz and discover your Charisma Quotient.

For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PresentInfluence

Thanks for listening, and please give the show a 5* review if you enjoyed it.

Transcript
John:

What if your most technical talk could become the story people

2

:

actually remember and act on?

3

:

Just imagine holding a room of

engineers, executives, or investors.

4

:

No blank stares.

5

:

Just heads nodding, and people leaning in.

6

:

Joel Benge has done exactly that

from Nickelodeon to NASA, to the

7

:

Department of Homeland Security

as author of Be A Nerd that talks

8

:

good and creator of message therapy.

9

:

He helps speakers strip out

the jargon, build trust, and

10

:

connect with any audience.

11

:

Stick with this episode and

you'll learn how to cut, overload,

12

:

share the right stories, and

make your message unforgettable.

13

:

You don't need to be

perfect to be powerful.

14

:

You just need a message that lands.

15

:

Welcome to Present Influence, the

show for speakers, coaches and

16

:

expert business owners who want

to deliver more impact, influence,

17

:

and inspiration in their message.

18

:

My name's John Ball, keynote

speaker, communication coach,

19

:

and your guide on this journey to

mastery level communication skills.

20

:

Joel, I'm very happy to welcome you to

Present Influence and have a chat with

21

:

you about technical presentations and

all the stuff that you have an offer.

22

:

'cause you've got a lot of interesting

stuff and I think the audience

23

:

is gonna be really interested.

24

:

So great to have you here today.

25

:

Joel Benge: Thanks, John I'm very

excited about this conversation.

26

:

John: I'm pleased to hear that.

27

:

I think one of the first things

we were connected, one of the

28

:

first things I thought, ah,

this looks really interesting.

29

:

I wanna know more about

this, was was your framework.

30

:

And that's something I definitely want

to come back to, but I know that you do

31

:

specifically communicate, or help people

who are in technical, technical areas

32

:

be able to communicate more effectively.

33

:

And certainly it's not a subject that

we've sied away from this show before.

34

:

We have talked about it before.

35

:

Why specifically has that

been a focus for you?

36

:

Joel Benge: Well, I lovingly refer

to them, as nerds and we, it's

37

:

time we reclaimed the nerd banner.

38

:

my background actually was not

in technology, it was in theater

39

:

education and video games.

40

:

I was one of the first.

41

:

Handful of people podcasting back

in the early two thousands, before

42

:

Apple had ever even heard of it.

43

:

but through a job at a video game

company on a help desk, I ended up,

44

:

transferring to a help desk at NASA.

45

:

And so I became the typical it geek.

46

:

For many, many years,

I did all the IT stuff.

47

:

I was building the servers and in the

server room doing cybersecurity and

48

:

the policy and then compliance and.

49

:

Tabulating all the

spreadsheets for compliance.

50

:

And I got an opportunity, to

work at the federal government.

51

:

I had applied as a compliance person

and they looked at my background.

52

:

I did a summer stint at Nickelodeon.

53

:

So I like to say I've worked from

Nickelodeon to NASA and a couple companies

54

:

that have other letters in between.

55

:

And they said, do you want to

be a communications manager?

56

:

I had a brand new, son and, I said,

well, it's time for me to get a

57

:

grownup job with the government.

58

:

what's the difference between

communications and compliance?

59

:

And they said, compliance

lives in Microsoft Excel and

60

:

communications lives in Word.

61

:

And at that point I was

at Theater School Dropout.

62

:

And I said, I do word stuff real good.

63

:

So I spent six and a half years at

the Department of Homeland Security

64

:

as the primary, cybersecurity

communications manager at headquarters,

65

:

coordinating all of the communications

and advocating for the end users,

66

:

advocating for, the secretary who had

very little time, read a lengthy memo.

67

:

So it was, how do we boil this

very complex information down?

68

:

To three bullets.

69

:

while congress needs to know the status

of the program, and you've got about

70

:

30 seconds, on the floor to share that.

71

:

So you've gotta contribute the

best of the best to that briefing.

72

:

and also writing, the change your

password as frequently as you change your

73

:

underwear type of awareness messaging.

74

:

So it was a crash course in communicating

technical things for the average person

75

:

or the person who had very little time.

76

:

Putting the best up front

in the government, we have

77

:

this thing called Bluff.

78

:

A lot of people know this

bottom line up front.

79

:

but the technical.

80

:

Inclination is to put the

boring, stuff upfront.

81

:

To put the numbers upfront.

82

:

And, I said there's gotta

be a better way to do this.

83

:

I had an opportunity to join

a startup, and it was based on

84

:

the founder's PhD thesis, and he

couldn't explain it to anybody.

85

:

it was based on a, an ant swarm technology

that was very biologically driven.

86

:

and so I came on board to help him

temper his instinct to share the

87

:

secret sauce, which is something that

technical people really tend to do.

88

:

and when the startup ran

out of money, I ended up in

89

:

marketing agencies and branding.

90

:

'cause someone looked at me and

said, wow, you cybersecurity guy.

91

:

You've worked in government.

92

:

You understand the

technology, but you're a great

93

:

John: Hmm.

94

:

Joel Benge: so I ended up in marketing

and so, but for the same technical people

95

:

that I used to be the, intelligence

community, cybersecurity startup

96

:

companies and, and software companies,

and reflecting back I saw that a lot

97

:

of technical communicators still need

to, tech still need to communicate on

98

:

behalf of their message themselves.

99

:

You can't abdicate your

message to a marketing company.

100

:

And so you have the founder

that has to do a, a pitch.

101

:

You have the salesperson that has to do a

human interaction to sell this technology.

102

:

Sometimes you've got people who have to

get on stage as you know, the the subject

103

:

at hand, and they have to captivate and

bring an audience into their vision.

104

:

And you don't do that by sharing

all again the boring stuff up front.

105

:

So I reflected on.

106

:

Sort of my, my approach to this and just

my natural inclination and bringing a

107

:

little bit of my, liberal arts background.

108

:

And I decided I'm gonna help these nerds

get better at talking for themselves.

109

:

Uh, I left marketing.

110

:

what I do, I, I call it

affectionately message therapy.

111

:

I help you work on your message

first upfront, do the self work.

112

:

Sometimes it's.

113

:

Individually, sometimes this is across

large, vast teams to find the best

114

:

stuff and the best order to put it in

front of your audiences, to get them

115

:

to sit up and pay attention, to have

them remember you after you've spoken.

116

:

That's a challenge.

117

:

And ultimately to drive them to results.

118

:

And I, you know, recently

wrote a book on it.

119

:

I designed a card game that I use in

my workshops and it's just been an

120

:

amazing journey watching these people

who previously would say I can't

121

:

speak as eloquently as you and I say.

122

:

You don't have to speak perfectly well.

123

:

You only gotta talk good.

124

:

You just gotta talk a little gooder

than the person that proceeded you

125

:

and the person that follows you.

126

:

And if you have that edge, you can

become a very good technical speaker.

127

:

John: It, it is very interesting to me

how it seems that pretty much all of your

128

:

experience come together to be relevant

to, to where you are and what you do now.

129

:

Which just, just seems

quite, quite amazing.

130

:

There's, we, we are, I think we often

undervalue or underplay how much,

131

:

value past experience can have and

how we can apply and bring, bring

132

:

a lot of it into, what we do now.

133

:

And I, I seem to speak to more and more

people who are creating their businesses,

134

:

their, their own businesses, the way

they really want them to be, and are

135

:

able to, to do that, to inject all these

elements and aspects of themselves,

136

:

and bring it all together to create

something really, really quite unique.

137

:

Which it seems that that's

what you've done as well.

138

:

Joel Benge: Yeah, I, I never had a plan.

139

:

I, I say I've stumbled into every

great opportunity and whether that's

140

:

I'm fortunate or I'm just open to

what the universe wants to hand me.

141

:

but I've always tried to

take experiences with me.

142

:

a funny case in point is with my

model, which I, I'd love, I'll

143

:

talk about a little bit later.

144

:

I have this concept of

the mantra, which is.

145

:

not your tagline, it's not, you know,

it's a cultural hallmark of, of who

146

:

you are or a personality hallmark.

147

:

Just things, things that you always say.

148

:

that becomes, that, that really.

149

:

the root of who you are.

150

:

I actually got that from seeing Guy

Kawasaki the great, tech evangelist

151

:

speak while I was at the federal

government many, many, many years later.

152

:

I incorporated that as part of my,

my model, and wrote it in the book.

153

:

And then the funny story is two weeks

before the book came out, I realized,

154

:

oh, I got that from Guy Kawasaki and I

did not reference him in the book at all.

155

:

And so I, I cheekily sent him an

email and I said, I'm so very sorry.

156

:

you've been a big inspiration to me.

157

:

I've included you in my book, but

I didn't, I didn't acknowledge you.

158

:

So as a, as a, an apology, I'd love

to send you a copy of the book.

159

:

And, I have a podcast of my

own called Nerds that talk.

160

:

Good.

161

:

I'm just starting it up and I.

162

:

Cheekly said, Hey, and by the way,

if you'd ever come on my podcast, I'd

163

:

love to give you a public apology.

164

:

And he was my 25th podcast

guest, 20 episode 25.

165

:

I had the great Guy Kawasaki on

and we had an amazing conversation

166

:

about tech evangelism and the

things that I've learned from him.

167

:

So it, so it all has sort

of come circle for me.

168

:

John: I, I generally have found, podcasts.

169

:

Having a podcast has, enabled me as well

to be able to connect with people who

170

:

I really never thought I'd be able to,

and to sometimes reach out to people

171

:

just say, I would love to speak to them.

172

:

A lot times they say no, but sometimes,

like you've experienced, sometimes

173

:

they say yes and you just never know

who you might actually, be able to,

174

:

to land as a guest on your show.

175

:

that's wonderful and.

176

:

you said earlier that, come back to before

we start taking a look at your framework.

177

:

And that was about how a lot of

technical minded people, maybe

178

:

overshare a bit, was with kind of,

they lead with too much information

179

:

perhaps, or give too much away upfront.

180

:

can you just say a bit more

about that and, what really.

181

:

tends to happen there?

182

:

'cause I, and I'll say what I'm asking

this because I see this a lot with

183

:

people from training and teaching

backgrounds that they tend to over

184

:

deliver, over teach in keynote talks,

which is generally not a good idea.

185

:

So I'm wondering, this is,

if this is similar to that.

186

:

Joel Benge: Absolutely.

187

:

So the challenge there, I call it,

the blank stare moment, and in the

188

:

book I talk about the caveman brain.

189

:

And really it is a, an evolutionary

biology thing that our brains

190

:

were made to, conserve energy.

191

:

To conserve calories.

192

:

And the more you make somebody have to

think and parse out what you're presenting

193

:

to them, the further away they get from

you, the more distance you put between

194

:

you and them, until eventually their

brain trails off and they start thinking,

195

:

well, after this person is done talking

to me, I need to do this and that and

196

:

the other, and did I leave the kettle on?

197

:

and their brain starts to fade

away because they can no longer

198

:

lock in and pay attention.

199

:

And I think you hit the nail on the head.

200

:

This happens an awful lot with

teachers and people's whose jobs are

201

:

to deliver information, but oftentimes

when you're speaking, you're doing

202

:

your first presentation, you're

doing sales presentation, you're just

203

:

in interacting for the first time.

204

:

Your job is not to deliver information

that they remember and make a decision.

205

:

Your job is to open their mind up a

little bit, give them one or two things

206

:

that they hadn't thought about before,

and then get the next interaction.

207

:

or to inspire them, to be a little

self-reflective and to take another step.

208

:

And oftentimes with, especially

with sales, it's the inclination to

209

:

say, I'm gonna give you every piece

of information that I think you

210

:

might need to make this decision.

211

:

And I sure hope to God

one of these is the best.

212

:

Is the thing that you're looking

for and you'll latch onto.

213

:

And it's even the same with

the typical elevator pitch.

214

:

And I'm a, I'm on the record as being

anti elevator pitch because if you

215

:

think about the metaphor, it's, I'm

gonna lock you in a metal box for 35

216

:

seconds and I'm gonna read off these

five bullets until you come to the

217

:

conclusion that I want you to come to,

and I won't open these doors until you do.

218

:

And it's, that's adversarial,

it's overwhelming.

219

:

It's, and so what I

really advocate for is.

220

:

To open up yourself and start emotionally,

make a connection with the person you're

221

:

talking to, and so that they will lean

in and actually want to learn more.

222

:

the, the model that I follow is really

borrowing from the Great Thinkers,

223

:

Aristotle, Abraham Maslow and, and

many others, which is just the.

224

:

Rediscovering the art of conversation

wrapped in a, a framework, in a

225

:

system because nerds love systems.

226

:

And so, you know, I realized it, this is

just the way that I think, but if I can

227

:

package it so that someone can grasp it

very quickly and use what they can of

228

:

it, then that that's a, a win all round.

229

:

John: Yeah, I, I like that.

230

:

I, I get what you're saying

about elevator pitches.

231

:

I think the only reason I don't

necessarily hate it is because if

232

:

you have that and nothing else,

it's better than having nothing.

233

:

That you, you'll say, you'll say something

rather than not saying anything at all

234

:

and you've got something ready to go.

235

:

I kind of view it like, you know, I've

done martial arts trainings for years.

236

:

Like what you train you, you do.

237

:

And but I also get that it's a little

bit, but the, the place where it probably

238

:

fits best is speed networking offense.

239

:

Joel Benge: Yes.

240

:

John: You've got five 30 seconds to

speak to somebody and then they're

241

:

moving on to the next person anyway,

but there's no real connection there.

242

:

And I completely get what you're saying.

243

:

Joel Benge: What the elevator pitch

forces you to do is do some work

244

:

upfront, which is another thing that

I think technical people don't do.

245

:

They, they assume I'm smart

and I will, the words will

246

:

come to me when I need them.

247

:

And so what the elevator pitch does

is it allows you to sit down and

248

:

think, what are the things that

I want someone to walk away with?

249

:

Where it falls flat is.

250

:

It becomes a checklist and it becomes

the, I must squeeze all of these in there

251

:

and if I see that they're not paying

attention or we're about to hit our floor.

252

:

Then you'll notice that people

start speeding up and they spark.

253

:

I have to get my last thing in there.

254

:

And so what I'm much advocate

for is do the work upfront.

255

:

Literally get the thoughts out of your

head, onto the table in front of you

256

:

so that you can make a, clear decision.

257

:

About what do I have in my toolbox

that I can pull out at the appropriate

258

:

moment and to rehearse those.

259

:

So I'm not saying it shouldn't be a

rehearsed thing, but it shouldn't be

260

:

something that you recite at rote,

which as a former theater guy, is

261

:

very much the difference between

lines and improv, I would say.

262

:

John: Yeah.

263

:

No, I, I get it.

264

:

I think it all to me relates that

to this idea that you are suggesting

265

:

that it's like this temptation to

want to cram in as much information

266

:

in as short a time as possible.

267

:

Uh, whether that's an elevator

pitch or a keynote presentation, or

268

:

even a workshop, overload is almost

just as bad as the opposite really.

269

:

Or of under delivering it is like there's.

270

:

It's too much for people to take in.

271

:

That probably what people

take away from that.

272

:

It ends up being about the same.

273

:

Uh, I think overload is possibly

a little bit more scary as well.

274

:

Yeah.

275

:

Uh,

276

:

Joel Benge: Yeah, man, that per that

person was great and, but I have no

277

:

idea what they were talking about.

278

:

Or if you start throwing jargon or,

acronyms at somebody that requires

279

:

them to split their focus and it

requires something in their brain

280

:

to look up in their little index.

281

:

Do I know what that phrase is?

282

:

should I, you know, should I, I

don't know what that phrase is.

283

:

Oh my gosh, am I, am I not as intelligent

as this person who's talking to me?

284

:

And again, all it does is put distance

between you and the and the audience.

285

:

John: Yeah, I've certainly

seen that on stage as well.

286

:

I'm not gonna name names, but.

287

:

You, you specifically help

people to combat this.

288

:

And, and I, I was very fascinated

by the framework that you have.

289

:

And it's a very simple framework.

290

:

It makes a lot of sense.

291

:

It ties into a lot of what

I've learned and studied about,

292

:

uh, rhetoric and, and ideas.

293

:

So, so tell us what your framework is

and, uh, how you use that with people.

294

:

Joel Benge: Sure.

295

:

So to do that, I'll use the

message deck, which is the

296

:

workshop tool that I've designed.

297

:

on the front, actually, you know what?

298

:

I'll do one better for

you because I love props.

299

:

Did you know that there, did you know

that there are three human organs.

300

:

That the human body uses humans

use to communicate and to

301

:

make decisions and process.

302

:

Obviously we talked about the

first one, it's the brain and my

303

:

wife very lovingly crocheted me

this little brain that I, that I

304

:

John: Love that.

305

:

Joel Benge: this is, this is

representative of logic and

306

:

John: love that it has a

little smiley face as well.

307

:

Joel Benge: and it's, it's a little

cockeyed too, which is, which I love.

308

:

So a lot of people think that

if I'm communicating something,

309

:

technically I need to give you all

of the information and I'm gonna.

310

:

it up to you to make a decision on

it and to come to the conclusion

311

:

that I want you to come to.

312

:

But as we talked about, if you

overload and you, you overshare,

313

:

what you tend to do is just give

them too much homework to work on.

314

:

and I don't know about you, but in school.

315

:

I always learned more from the teachers

or the instructors that first struck

316

:

an emotional cord with me that I,

that I had a relationship with.

317

:

And there's something about the way

our brains work where if we want

318

:

to hear and learn something, we

will do it much, much, more aptly.

319

:

And so the second organ that

we actually, think with and

320

:

make decisions is the heart.

321

:

And so we have a little,

little squishy heart here.

322

:

and this is representative,

obviously of emotion.

323

:

the, the first thing that I tell

people is they don't have to

324

:

exactly like you, but they have to

want to listen to your next words.

325

:

And so emotion, logic.

326

:

And then the last one, is credibility.

327

:

That is represented by the gut,

but, it would be very weird

328

:

if I pulled up a, a stomach.

329

:

So I have a little,

little cheeseburger here.

330

:

could be a veggie burger.

331

:

This is representative of the

stomach and the gut and we.

332

:

Almost all of our, all of our

dealings, we have a gut feeling, right?

333

:

The numbers may look

sense, may make sense.

334

:

The all the technicals may, line up,

but I just don't trust this person,

335

:

or this just doesn't make sense to me.

336

:

In my life, I, something is wrong.

337

:

And we are now learning a lot

about evolutionary biology, where

338

:

our gut is a, is a thinking organ.

339

:

it's less in, it's not an emotional

organ and it's not a logical organ.

340

:

It's really, it's really,

geared for survival.

341

:

So the first thing that I do is I tell

people, you've gotta make 'em like you.

342

:

Or at least want to pay attention.

343

:

You've gotta give them just enough

information, not all of it, to

344

:

not introduce more questions.

345

:

And then you've gotta build some

sort of credibility and trust or

346

:

some rapport with them so that they

will want to take that next step.

347

:

And for those marketing people out

there, if we were to take this and

348

:

turn it on its side, it would look an

awful lot like the marketing funnel.

349

:

Which is get somebody's interest,

deliver information, and convert them.

350

:

It's very simplified, but

most technical people don't

351

:

need to learn about marketing.

352

:

They just need to learn about

building a relationship.

353

:

So on the back of that, and not to, not

to rip off, that's all from Aristotle.

354

:

Not to rip off one great master, I

ripped off Maslow's hierarchy of needs

355

:

and I created, or I conceived of.

356

:

A hierarchy of messages.

357

:

So if you think about, for the, for the

benefit of the people listening on audio,

358

:

if you think about a, a triangle where

the heaviest, detailed, information is

359

:

at the bottom, high density, low emotion,

that's very technical, and you move

360

:

up towards the top, then you have the

top, you have the emotional low density

361

:

takeaways, and those are the

things that actually lock in.

362

:

A lot more people may remember

facts and figures, but they'll

363

:

always remember, a big idea.

364

:

So what I, what I do with my clients

is I trick them into sharing their

365

:

feelings because oftentimes you'll ask

a company, so what is the big idea?

366

:

Maybe we're working on a website project.

367

:

What is the big idea that you

want somebody to walk away with?

368

:

Or after your presentation,

what's the one thing?

369

:

And again, I work with technical people

and software, and they might say, well,

370

:

we're a cloud-based identity access

management solution using agentic ai.

371

:

Well, I don't know that a lot of

people are searching specifically

372

:

for that on, on Google, or they

haven't come to you for that.

373

:

So what's your, your biggest idea?

374

:

And they'll say, oh, well, why would

somebody want to work with you?

375

:

And they'll say, well, you've

got identities in the cloud and

376

:

you need to manage their access

and, and be more compliant.

377

:

And I'll say, no, no.

378

:

What's something you want to

change about your industry?

379

:

And all of a sudden their eyes light

up and they say, well, do you know,

380

:

why we do the thing that we do?

381

:

It's because we believe

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

382

:

So when you can get somebody to shift

away from their technology and talk about,

383

:

we believe it's a great introduction.

384

:

if you think linearly from, talk

or a pitch, people aren't there to

385

:

learn about unless it's a symposium.

386

:

People aren't there to learn

about the thing that you've built.

387

:

They're there to learn about

how you're changing their world.

388

:

The thing that you've built is almost

of a, of a second or third order.

389

:

So the, the system, is actually taking

people through different prompts and

390

:

prompting them about, you know, what,

what market paradigm are you breaking?

391

:

Why are you successful over others?

392

:

Or if you get down into a story,

it's not the the hero's journey.

393

:

it is just tell me how did you

stumble upon your breakthrough?

394

:

What did you try before?

395

:

Because what stories do is they

contextualize what we're sharing

396

:

in the, the mind of the audience.

397

:

And so I see a lot of people, especially

founders or people on stage going,

398

:

imagine that there was a father, I

had somebody that I was consulting

399

:

with and, and he said, imagine there's

a father who went to the store with

400

:

his children and yada, yada, yada.

401

:

And I said, be honest with me.

402

:

is that father you.

403

:

He said yes, and I said, well then let's

change your story to when I go out with

404

:

my kids, here's a challenge that I often

face, or how many of you have kids?

405

:

Imagine you are out with your kids

and you face this challenge, and

406

:

it's just in the way that we present.

407

:

The same piece of information

can either be all right.

408

:

Imagine you're forcing them to think

and put their head off in, in some

409

:

distant land that may not exist,

or you're rooting it in an actual

410

:

experience that you can share.

411

:

So, you know, the, the, the model is

really taking people through all of

412

:

these different prompts, helping them

learn the difference between what's

413

:

a tangible value, value proposition,

what's an intangible value proposition.

414

:

what's the biggest need that they,

that they're facing all the way

415

:

down to, Hey, what do you find

yourself saying, frequently?

416

:

These are those mantras I talked about.

417

:

What phrase do you find

yourself repeating often?

418

:

And what phrase do you

hear from your customers?

419

:

If you can draw a linkage between those

and start using the same language that

420

:

your audience uses, even if it's informal,

even if it's just an inside joke, that

421

:

can go a lot long way to building that

rapport and having someone nod their

422

:

heads and go, I like this person.

423

:

They're just like me.

424

:

I want, I want to work with them.

425

:

And so what the, the model and the, the

workshop is really forcing you to, to not

426

:

analytically, not, intellectually, look

at your message, but look at it using your

427

:

heart and using your gut before you do

it with your, with your, with your mind.

428

:

There's so many people when they're

writing a speech, when they're

429

:

working on a website, the, they

say, what should I put here?

430

:

And, and message therapy is about

what could you put there and

431

:

what do you want to put there?

432

:

And then helping you make a, a.

433

:

Reasonable decision, especially as a team.

434

:

Again, sometimes this works

really well with, decision making

435

:

and collaborative thinking.

436

:

What is the appropriate thing for

us to say right now or right here?

437

:

John: Yeah, it's interesting, me and

I, I'm curious to get your thoughts

438

:

on, so, because one of the things that

I've encountered a number of times

439

:

working with people, and I, I've done

some videos about this and talked about

440

:

it in various places of how sometimes

professionalism, especially in the

441

:

corporate world, holds people back from

expressing themselves that they have vs.

442

:

Um.

443

:

Almost like archetype or stereotype

of what a professional person should

444

:

be like and how a professional

person should present themselves.

445

:

And that generally means not

sharing personal information.

446

:

It generally means not talking

about you or yourself not being

447

:

particularly emotional about stuff.

448

:

keeping things on a very sort of

level, almost like sort of playing

449

:

field, and that you're supposed

to be this sort of leader person.

450

:

Portray this strong image to do that.

451

:

and what you are doing is part of

helping people to, to direct around that.

452

:

But do you, even with those tools, do

you still encounter people who really

453

:

struggle to shake off this idea of

what professionals should be like?

454

:

Joel Benge: Absolutely.

455

:

And I think you, you hit the

nail directly on the head.

456

:

and especially where we're moving with

content and with AI generated content,

457

:

there is very little vulnerability in it.

458

:

There's a lot of emotion and a lot

of people think, I need to, I need to

459

:

stoke up high emotion in my audience

and I need to make them feel something.

460

:

Sometimes I need to create

an artificial emotion.

461

:

That definitely happens with.

462

:

A lot of the artificial AI

garbage that, that we're seeing.

463

:

but if you can approach your audience

from a place of vulnerability,

464

:

from a place of that, that's a card

that I pulled up with the story.

465

:

It's like, Hey man, where did

you, I have another one, which is,

466

:

where have you fallen flat before?

467

:

Show us your bruises.

468

:

Show me that you've actually experienced

what I, what I've experienced,

469

:

and I'm, and, and overcome it.

470

:

And I'm much more likely to want

to learn how you've overcome it.

471

:

A lot of people like to present

themselves, especially in cybersecurity,

472

:

which is, which is my background.

473

:

A lot of people like to present

themselves as very pristine and

474

:

clean, and a hun 360 degree perfect.

475

:

And nobody, I don't.

476

:

I don't know about you, but I don't

wanna hang around with perfect people.

477

:

I don't wanna do business with perfect

people because life isn't perfect

478

:

and when they encounter a problem,

they don't know how to handle it.

479

:

But if you've had challenges, if you've

come from a place of I, and we see this

480

:

pattern a lot in motivational speakers,

they start with their personal story.

481

:

I was here.

482

:

Maybe you can relate to that and I've

overcome it and these are the things

483

:

that I've learned and I wanna spare

you the experience that I had and give

484

:

you the what I'm experiencing now.

485

:

And that that before to

after is very powerful.

486

:

Even in business, if you can't share

the before and you just share, we

487

:

can make your business perfect,

we can make your life perfect.

488

:

People are uninclined,

disinclined to believe it.

489

:

But if you can say, I can show

you the path to get from where you

490

:

are right now, because I've been

there to here and warts and all.

491

:

you know, and especially again with, with

technical presentations, people saying

492

:

This is a hundred percent infallible.

493

:

Well, I don't believe you, but if you

say, this is what it can do, this is what

494

:

it can't do, then I want what it can do.

495

:

That's that's the most important thing.

496

:

John: Yeah, yeah.

497

:

That marked right perfectionism to

my list of charisma killers because,

498

:

I think it, I think it is what I'm.

499

:

and it's unrelatable and

none of us are perfect.

500

:

And, and it's unrelatable because

we know that no one else is perfect.

501

:

We know that there's been

issues and problems, but they

502

:

just don't wanna share them.

503

:

So that creates the mistrust.

504

:

people think it's, maybe again, you

could, maybe it's tied in with that

505

:

sort of, fixed mindset sort of thing.

506

:

Or if you think if you show any

kind of weakness or anything that it

507

:

takes something away from you, but.

508

:

Really, it's like having negative reviews

for, a book or, or anything on online.

509

:

It's like, you should leave them there

because it, it's, people can believe it.

510

:

They, they know that not

everyone is gonna love it.

511

:

Nothing is for everybody.

512

:

And, and that's very

much how it should be.

513

:

So I think it's very valuable.

514

:

Very valuable what you're saying there.

515

:

Let me, let me ask you this, because,

something, something came up earlier and I

516

:

wanted to circle back around to it about,

517

:

How you tell one, when people

are creating their presentations,

518

:

and how you get people to focus

on what the outcome is of that.

519

:

And it amazes me.

520

:

I, I mean, I've worked with hundreds

of people in presentations over,

521

:

over years and, it amazed me how

many people do not have this.

522

:

They just, they wanna, they

create a talk, but they don't

523

:

have a clear objective for it.

524

:

Like, well, yeah, you can create a

talk without a clear objective, but.

525

:

It's gonna ramble, it's going to

probably get lost if you don't really

526

:

know why you are putting it together.

527

:

How, how do we, how do you help

people get to understand how

528

:

important that is and how do they

generally know when they've got that?

529

:

Joel Benge: So again, that is in

the discussion and, and forcing.

530

:

People to think about the things

that they, they wouldn't think about.

531

:

and as a facilitator, as a consultant,

that's easy for me to do, as an

532

:

outsider because I can ask the ands and

then, and the whys, you know, ask the

533

:

three or four whys to, to dig deeper.

534

:

It's, it's less easy for

people to do it on their own.

535

:

that's one of the reasons I wrote

the book and develop the card

536

:

system because it almost takes an

outside, it almost takes the, the.

537

:

takes the role of the

outside pr, non participant.

538

:

I saw a really good consultant once

say, I'm an interested third party.

539

:

I'm not, I'm not part of this,

but I have an interest in

540

:

helping you get to the solution.

541

:

and that, again, is asking the why's.

542

:

So what the cards do is they're intended

to make people think about things

543

:

they hadn't thought about before.

544

:

But I think it's the, I think it's

just the challenge of the blank page

545

:

where people are like, alright, I'm

looking at what I'm doing linearly.

546

:

And so I am starting, if I'm writing

a webpage, I'm starting at the top.

547

:

I'm starting with the headline.

548

:

Never do that.

549

:

Write the bottom part first,

and then the headline should be

550

:

reflective of, of everything else.

551

:

if you're doing a, a talk, you're

like, all right, I wanna start with my.

552

:

Opening PowerPoint slide number one.

553

:

And so what I recommend people do is chunk

up what they wanna say, figure out what

554

:

they wanna say, and then figure out the

most appropriate order, to delivering it.

555

:

And that'll help you figure

out like what's the takeaway?

556

:

You wanna know what the end is.

557

:

You wanna know what the journey

is gonna be for, for your

558

:

audience before you start.

559

:

And you wanna hint at a little bit.

560

:

You want to give them, you know,

again, that big idea is a thread

561

:

that goes throughout your entire

presentation or your piece of content

562

:

or, or your talk or what have you.

563

:

and if you are like, I'm gonna build up

to this great conclusion, and then they're

564

:

gonna have the aha moment, you know?

565

:

emotionally, you want to build to an

aha moment, but you wanna let them

566

:

know what that aha moment is gonna

give them because you wanna give

567

:

them something to look forward to.

568

:

John: Yeah, I, I think that's great.

569

:

I find sometimes as well that.

570

:

One of the things that sometimes treats

people up on figuring this out is because

571

:

there's like two elements to it as well.

572

:

there's your outcome as the

speaker and there's the outcome

573

:

for the audience as well.

574

:

And you do need to differentiate those.

575

:

They are, different things as to

what you want to, the outcome of

576

:

the talk to be and what you want

the outcome to be for them as well.

577

:

They should be different

things at least I think.

578

:

Joel Benge: And the outcome

for the, for the organizer.

579

:

Which is very different.

580

:

So, and, and something that I've even

been learning as I'm, you know, I've

581

:

been on stages my entire life, but never,

until recently as an actual speaker is

582

:

the, the, your customer is often the

organizer, the event organizer, and

583

:

they have a very different, plan or a

very different need than the audience.

584

:

And so you really have to understand

the three different, perspectives,

585

:

the three different needs.

586

:

And then you have to find a way to build

your talk, build your presentation into a

587

:

Venn diagram that delivers for all three.

588

:

And that, again, comes from saying,

what would this person want to hear?

589

:

What is the outcome here?

590

:

Let me lay it all on the

table in front of me.

591

:

The steps that I take my workshop

participants through is actually

592

:

prompting them with the cards

so they write everything down.

593

:

So, and it's not on a sheet of paper

because again, we don't wanna, we don't

594

:

wanna just capture things linearly.

595

:

I have them write them down on note

cards so they can move them around

596

:

and say, all right, now that we

have spent 45 minutes together and

597

:

we have 400 different thoughts in

our mind, how would I compose these

598

:

thoughts together for this objective?

599

:

Now using those same thoughts, maybe

bringing one or two others in there.

600

:

How would I do it for this objective?

601

:

And one of my favorite experiences is

when I do this as a team and I'm trying

602

:

to help them find that one big idea, and

they're all bringing different big ideas

603

:

together, but we can take a step back

and say, what do they all have in common?

604

:

Maybe you're using different words.

605

:

Maybe you like this tagline and you

like that tagline, but I feel, and

606

:

this is now my, my role as a, as a

consultant and a message therapist is

607

:

to say, I feel like what I'm hearing

is maybe the, the bigger idea is

608

:

we're looking out for the underdog.

609

:

Have you ever used that in any of your,

your messaging or your presentations?

610

:

And nine times outta 10,

they'll go, we had no idea.

611

:

We were all thinking the same thing.

612

:

And it was 'cause they're focused on

the, what they're saying or the how

613

:

they're saying it and not the bigger

idea, the outcome and the, and the,

614

:

the, the essence of what they're saying.

615

:

So if you can boil down your talk to an

essence as opposed to the words that I'd

616

:

like to say when I deliver this talk,

you can find a lot more synergy between.

617

:

Your objective, which is to make the

audience feel good and change their mind,

618

:

or have them take some action or buy your

book or you know, downstream business,

619

:

whatever the audience's perspective of.

620

:

I'm here to have a good time.

621

:

I'm here to not be put off and offended.

622

:

Sometimes I don't want, I don't want

my thoughts to be challenged, but

623

:

I'd sure love to learn something

new, which is a, which is always

624

:

a, a, a challenge with an audience.

625

:

And then the, the, event coordinator

whose objective is to have people buy

626

:

tickets for their next event, which

was really what it boils down to.

627

:

So what do all three of those have

in common that you can deliver?

628

:

John: It is a great way to think

about it, especially for those who are

629

:

speaking either as paid professional

speakers or speaking to, promote

630

:

product services or as some part of

their business is like, you do need to

631

:

consider these things you're going on.

632

:

Generally, unless you're creating

your own events, you're going

633

:

on other people's stages.

634

:

So you need to work with the, the bookers

just as much and, and certainly something

635

:

that, in my time working with, the,

the speaker, I've spent a lot of time

636

:

working that, and I, I encounter so many

more speakers now who are coming up with

637

:

great tools and resources to help people

in these, in these processes because,

638

:

prospecting for speaking work can be, hard

work, a significant part of what we do.

639

:

I love, I love everything you've

been been sharing about this.

640

:

And I wonder, I mean, for, can we, can

we get hold of your, your prompt cards?

641

:

Because I love this idea of, if I'm one,

I'm writing stories or comedy material or

642

:

anything like that, prompts help me a lot.

643

:

So if, if we are putting together

something like this, prompts like

644

:

yours would probably help a lot.

645

:

Are they available for, for anyone to buy?

646

:

Joel Benge: They are.

647

:

Yeah, I, in fact, the, I created the

cards one because I had a really great

648

:

experience at the startup that I was at.

649

:

You.

650

:

Using cards to explain.

651

:

but it was also for my purposes, because

these are questions that I knew I needed

652

:

to ask in a workshop and I needed a way

to prompt myself to prompt the client.

653

:

So the cards are available, at my

website, nerd that talks good.com,

654

:

which will forward to my company website.

655

:

And I have, I have the cards, I've

got virtual versions of them, and I've

656

:

actually built a message therapy simulator

that has, a little, little slides that

657

:

you step through, and it's me telling

you a little bit more in depth about what

658

:

each of those levels of the framework is.

659

:

And then it gives you some

cards to, to click through.

660

:

and even in the book, there's a

link to a goodies section, which

661

:

has work worksheets and, and.

662

:

of resources to just do this

yourself and get started.

663

:

And then obviously I'm always

available for a, a, a quick message

664

:

there, quick free message therapy

session to, to help you say, now I've

665

:

got all this stuff in front of me.

666

:

What do I do with it?

667

:

Because that's really where

the rubber hits the road.

668

:

John: Yeah, absolutely.

669

:

I think sometimes, especially in this

age or, and maybe you find this as

670

:

well, but sometimes with everything

that we have going on and all the

671

:

things, but we have so many mental

tabs open at one time, keeping a

672

:

track of everything that's going on.

673

:

Can be one of the hardest things.

674

:

So having somebody who can help you to,

to get on track with something that's

675

:

actually important for you, is, is

very vital, very, very helpful indeed.

676

:

So I can appreciate that.

677

:

And, and so the book is that, do

we get that through through your

678

:

website or can we get it on like

any, any Amazon or in your life?

679

:

Joel Benge: So the book, I don't even

think I've mentioned the book's name

680

:

book is Be a Nerd That Talks Good.

681

:

There's my Signature Glasses, and

it's available on all the major

682

:

retailers, ebook, paperback.

683

:

if, however you buy from Nerd

that talks good.com/book,

684

:

it helps me a little bit more

because, you know, it's just,

685

:

it's just the way retail works.

686

:

So, so, it's a, it's a connection with me.

687

:

Plus I'll reach out, personally

to anybody that buys the book and

688

:

thank them and, ask how I can help

because it's not enough as we're

689

:

learning to just put things out there.

690

:

It's really about building a connection.

691

:

It's doing that follow on work.

692

:

It's building a community.

693

:

And much to my wife, Chag

Chagrin, she says, you give way

694

:

too many things away for free.

695

:

I said, well, because I have, I

have a, a, a mission that I have,

696

:

which is helping technically minded

people, helping the nerds learn to

697

:

reclaim their, their credibility,

talk better on their own behalf.

698

:

you know, to do that, it's about just

helping people improve, day by day.

699

:

And, I want to be part of that

journey for other people too.

700

:

John: Yeah, I do find that, in, in my

experience, anyone, I've been in personal

701

:

development world for a long time.

702

:

The people who, have everything is

expensive with them, and they're,

703

:

they're not easily accessible.

704

:

often not the best teachers, they're

more the gurus and the, the people

705

:

who claim or seem to have all

the answers, but probably don't.

706

:

And the people who know are real,

they're part led on a, have their

707

:

own vision, mission, purpose for

what they want to do and really

708

:

want to help and make a difference.

709

:

The people who will make a lot

more stuff accessible and I think

710

:

probably do a lot better from that

because, when somebody helps you,

711

:

then you, you naturally want

to do more with them anyway.

712

:

Learn more from them if they

actually solve a problem for you

713

:

or help you in some small way.

714

:

I think we can encourage people in, but

I, I love that you know, you are, you

715

:

are one of many people I come across

now who are helping people to establish

716

:

connection more with audiences rather

than just get up on stage and think it's

717

:

about you looking good or you giving a

great performances so much more than that.

718

:

With that, if that connection

part isn't there, you are

719

:

wasting, wasting a lot of time.

720

:

Really,

721

:

Joel Benge: It'd be very easy

for me to record a passive video

722

:

course, and I'm, I'm working on one.

723

:

But always like to make things

a little bit more exciting and

724

:

a little bit more personable.

725

:

but it'd be very easy for me just to

say, oh, here, buy this, and you're

726

:

on your own, which so many people do.

727

:

but you know, I want to be part of the

journey of, of the people who I'm helping.

728

:

John: I think more and more people

are, are recognizing certainly in, in

729

:

where we are currently, that, do it

yourself isn't working for most people.

730

:

They'll buy a program and they just

kind of left to their own devices

731

:

and they never touch it or maybe

spend a few hours with it and then

732

:

it gets left on a shelf, so to speak.

733

:

But, I like what you're doing.

734

:

I like, I love how

you're doing it as well.

735

:

You certainly have the, the

cutest props I've ever seen.

736

:

Your crochet, your crocheted props.

737

:

So great.

738

:

I love, I love these cars as well.

739

:

I think these sorts of prompts are

very, very helpful to what you're

740

:

doing and, and this framework makes

it nice and simple to understand.

741

:

Like you, it's a nice way to express.

742

:

Principles of rhetoric in a way

that we can relate to a little bit,

743

:

maybe a little more easily than

Aristotle, his original format.

744

:

but Joel, I really appreciate that.

745

:

Just remind us one more time where,

where the best places to go for people

746

:

who want to check out the cards, the

book, or find out more about you.

747

:

Joel Benge: So the quickest way

to find me is to just search

748

:

for nerd that talks good.

749

:

nerd.

750

:

That talks good.com.

751

:

So it's dot com official.

752

:

I'm

753

:

also on LinkedIn and many of the

social platforms, but the best

754

:

way to connect with me is, just

to go to Nerd that talks good.com,

755

:

hit contact, drop me a note, and, I

would love to, to help everyone out

756

:

there learn to talk a little bit gooder.

757

:

John: I certainly hope for the speakers

and presenters who have been watching

758

:

the video version of this, which I do

recommend 'cause you're missing a lot

759

:

if you haven't been watching the video.

760

:

thejustsimple Things like

having the props ready, having

761

:

everything you displayed is, uh.

762

:

And the way you've like switched

cameras and something that you've

763

:

inspired me to learn OBS as well.

764

:

But, the, these things are just

great in terms of you're presenting

765

:

yourself really well and you lay

everything out really simply.

766

:

and it's been a real pleasure to

see what you do and to learn more

767

:

about your, your framework and

everything that you have to offer.

768

:

And I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation.

769

:

Joel, thank you for coming

on Present Influence.

770

:

Just imagine walking off stage

knowing people aren't just politely

771

:

clapping, but quoting your words,

sharing your stories, and remembering

772

:

you long after the slides are gone.

773

:

Joel's message Therapy framework

shows that when you balance

774

:

head, heart, and gut, even the

most complex ideas can stick.

775

:

That's how he's helped everyone

from tech founders to government

776

:

leaders talk good and be heard.

777

:

Now it's your turn.

778

:

Subscribe to present influence.

779

:

Drop your takeaway from this

episode into the comments and share

780

:

this with a speaker who needs it.

781

:

The clearer your message,

the bigger your impact.

782

:

See you next time.

All Episodes Previous Episode

About the Podcast

Show artwork for Present Influence: The Professional Speaking Show
Present Influence: The Professional Speaking Show
Speak to inspire. Influence with integrity. Lead with presence.

Listen for free

About your host

Profile picture for John Ball

John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.