Episode 234

Stop Performing, Start Connecting | Rebecca Williams on Presenting That Moves People

Most presenters polish slides and still feel the room slip away. In this conversation with Rebecca Williams, co-author of Presenting Presenting: The Art of Public Speaking and How to Do It Better, we delve into why performance blocks connection and how to address it quickly. You’ll learn Rebecca’s First Five Formula to open any talk, how to reframe nerves into excitement, and why you should build your talk off the laptop and on the wall before you ever touch slides.

We cover connecting with your audience first, storytelling that lands, and the mindset shift from “make me look good” to service. We also get practical for analytical presenters in tech, science, and blockchain who rely on data and jargon. If you speak at work, on stage, or on video, this will help you open stronger, deliver with heart, and be remembered.

What you’ll learn

  • The First Five Formula to hook any audience in minutes
  • How to lead with a question and read the room
  • A repeatable prep process using paper, Sharpie, and structure
  • Reframing nerves into excitement so delivery feels natural
  • Why emotion drives persuasion and “robot talks” fail
  • How to stop over-performing and start connecting
  • Dressing and presence choices that support your message
  • Fixing common corporate communication traps

About Rebecca

Rebecca Williams is a communication coach and co-author of Presenting: The Art of Public Speaking and How to Do It Better. She helps leaders and technical teams present with clarity, story, and genuine connection.

Grab Rebecca’s book

Search Amazon for “ Presenting presenting the Art of Public Speaking and How to Do It Better. Rebecca Williams” or visit https://rebecca-williams.com/book/

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For speaking enquiries or to connect with me, you can email john@presentinfluence.com or find me on LinkedIn

You can find all our clips, episodes and more on the Present Influence YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@PresentInfluence

Thanks for listening, and please give the show a 5* review if you enjoyed it.

Transcript
Speaker:

John (2): Have you ever nailed

your slides, but felt like the

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room wasn't completely with you?

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Well, today you're gonna learn why

my guest, Rebecca Williams, is the

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co-author of presenting the Art of Public

Speaking and how to do it better, and

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she grew up backstage at the opera, she

mastered performance and then discovered

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that it was blocking real connection.

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In this episode, you'll get to steal her

First Five Formula to hook any audience,

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flip nerves into usable excitement,

and build a talk the right way.

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Off the laptop on the wall with a pen.

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So delivery feels effortless.

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If you present at work on stage

or on video, this will change

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how you open, how you land, your

point and how you are remembered.

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Stick around, hit follow, and let's

turn performance into presence.

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Welcome to Present Influence the

Professional Speaking Show for coaches,

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speakers, and communicators who want

to deliver more impact, influence, and

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inspiration with their communication.

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My name's John Ball, professional speaker,

keynote coach, and part-time comedian,

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and I'm your guide on this journey to

mastery level communication skills.

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It is a pleasure for me to be

able to introduce you today.

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Rebecca Williams.

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Rebecca, welcome to the show.

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Rebecca Williams: Thanks, John.

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Thanks for having me.

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It's good to be here.

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John (2): I've been so looking

forward to speaking to you.

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When we had, our pre episode planning

chat, we went deep on a few things.

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I think probably the longest pre

podcast chat I've had with anyone.

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we talked about a lot of good stuff

and it one of the things in particular

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about what you do is that we work in

a very similar area, but you have,

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co-written a book on presenting, and I

think we have a lot of, things in common.

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I'm gonna be curious to find out if

there's some things that we maybe.

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don't share the same opinion on, so

it'll be interesting to explore some of

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these ideas, but I'd love to hear from

you, what sparked for you an interest in

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presenting and speaking and storytelling?

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Rebecca Williams: what really started

it all off for me was growing up in

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a family that was an opera family.

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So my dad was an opera director and.

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we lived all over the world.

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We lived in Germany and Toronto

and ended up in Texas where he

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opened his own opera company.

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And when I was a kid, he was always

pulling me up on the stage and

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saying, I need a kid for this role.

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there was no foresight in it.

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It was just he was solving a

problem in the moment and he

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said, get on stage, Rebecca.

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And so I became very comfortable with.

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Performing on a stage, and I loved, my dad

would teach me how to work the audience.

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he taught me how to make them laugh.

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He taught me how to capture

their attention and I didn't

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think too much about it.

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That was just something that

happened in my childhood.

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And then go into my life and I worked

in Japan for a while teaching English

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as a second language, and then landed

back in the States and started doing

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because I love communication and

storytelling and all these things.

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And so I started working at, consulting

for tech companies and things like

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that on storytelling and communications

and leadership communications.

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And strangely enough, it took

me a long time to realize this

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about myself, but when I would.

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Present for my corporate audience

doing a training or whatever.

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I didn't realize it at the time.

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It took me many years to figure it out.

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I was still performing and I knew there

was something off, but I didn't know

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what it was, and I just thought, oh,

I'm just nervous, or, oh, I'm just,

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not used to this, or I'm stressed

by the client, or, whatever it was.

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But then.

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I had to write my story for a

project I was doing, and I was

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like, well, what is my story?

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like, what, how did I

get here essentially?

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And what became clear to me was

that, that that skill that I learned

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from my dad how to perform was

actually hindering my professional

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success because it was preventing

me from connecting with my audience.

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So I had to, I had to unlearn.

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Performing and I had to learn how

to, the, it, the irony of learning

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how to be authentic, right?

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I had to just allow myself

to show up as myself.

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So that's been my real journey with

it all and why presenting is so, it's,

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it's big in my heart for that reason.

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John (2): Yeah, I, I think I see so

many people in the public speaking

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and professional speaking world

who do treat it as a performance.

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Are very much in that space and I, I

probably would agree with you that it, it

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potentially does damage the connection.

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So what are the kinds of things that

help you to move more into the realm

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of connecting rather than performing?

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And maybe that helped you and how

you are helping other people now.

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Rebecca Williams: Yeah, there are a

couple of things that I always share

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with clients that I'm working on and

also just, I remind myself of all the

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time because I'm constantly presenting

and teaching and training people.

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One of the, the simplest things and

your audience is probably gonna say,

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well, duh to this, but you would be

surprised at how many people forget.

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And that is to always connect

with the audience first.

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So what does that mean in practice?

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It means leading with a question.

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It means, getting a read of the

room by talking to people in the

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audience before you take the stage.

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It's literally connecting

with people before you go into

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delivering some kind of message.

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One of the, the speakers I love

the most is, sir Ken Robinson.

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He did the TED Talk on creativity.

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Did you see that?

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I,

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John (2): I did, yeah.

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Absolutely.

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My favorite Ted Talk ever.

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Yeah.

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Rebecca Williams: Ah, he's so good.

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And I've watched that so many

times and I've shown that to

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my students so many times.

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And he goes out on stage and he

literally, he just walks out and he

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pauses and he says to this audience

of 500 people, he is so how you doing?

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Everybody just cracks up because it's

a Ted talk and he just, he takes the

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time to just do the simple thing of

connecting with the audience and,

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and his talks is such an example.

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It's a great example of

authenticity and connection.

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So leading with a question is,

is hands down, it's my favorite

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piece of advice to give speakers.

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And then the other one is two.

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Take on a service mindset

when you are speaking.

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So Gandhi has a beautiful quote

that I often quote, and it says,

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you come alive when you lose

yourself in the service of others.

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And for me, that says a lot because

I'm doing a big presentation

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on Monday for this company that

I'm working with in Amsterdam.

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I could be really nervous about

that because it's high stakes,

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but instead I'm shifting it

to, okay, what can I give them?

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Or what can I teach them that's gonna

help them understand this thing that's

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gonna help them be better at their work?

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And so I'm coming at it

from that perspective.

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And when you come at it with service,

it really takes the edge off because

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it's not about you, it's about

your audience and helping them.

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John (2): For, for me, that was one of

the two big things that helped me push

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over fears of being up on stage and,

and messing up talks and all of that.

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the, that was probably one,

one of the biggest ones.

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So just making that decision

that this isn't even about me.

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This I'm doing this for them, not for me.

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So they probably don't

mind too much if I mess up.

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But the most important thing is

that they get the message that I'm

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here to talk about and that I give

them that as clearly and, and as

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entertainingly as I can, right.

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Whilst I'm on the stage.

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But I know the, the other big thing

for me, the of getting over the,

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the fear of getting up on the stage

in the first place was simply just

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reframing the whole thing as, all my

fears were really just excitement.

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How, how keen I was to get up there and

talk on the stage and, and do this and

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share a message and do something valuable.

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And so it was all really very

much based in, All already

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based and rooted in service.

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Rebecca Williams: Mm-hmm.

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Yeah.

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There's, a researcher and teacher

at, I believe it's the Harvard School

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of Business, and her name is Dr.

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Allison Woodbrook, and she has done

research into this, this feeling of being

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nervous before you do public speaking.

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And what she's found is that.

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You definitely sure you, you feel nervous.

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Like most people feel nervous even if

they're very seasoned public speakers.

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But what's true is that nervousness has a

certain tone to it, a certain vibration,

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and so does the emotion of excitement.

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It's the same vibration.

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If you can train yourself to, instead

of associate that vibration with

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nervousness to instead associate it

with excitement like you're saying,

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then you do yourself a huge favor

because you're framing this experience

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in a different way, which, which means

you'll have a different experience.

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So, yeah,

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John (2): it's, it's interesting.

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I got asked, the weekend I was

delivering an introductory story to

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competition and, I got asked by one of

the competitors, if I still get nervous

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when I get up on stage to whether

it's storytelling, standup comedy, or

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keynote speaking, do I get nervous?

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Kind of.

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It's, it's it's different

to how it used to be.

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There's no real fear of it because

I enjoy being on the stage now.

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But, there's still a little

bit of nerve just for thought.

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I wanna do a good job.

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I wanna get up there and

do the best that I can do.

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And so I think, I think if I didn't

feel any of that, a bit of excitement,

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a bit of tension to get up on

stage, I would be a bit concerned.

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How, how do you feel when you are

about to go and speak these days?

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Rebecca Williams: Yeah, it's

interesting 'cause I definitely

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have a process of preparation and I.

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I'll share my process 'cause I think

it might be helpful for people.

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So I'm working on talk right now and my

first step, it's never on the computer

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and this is, this is one thing I I

try to really emphasize with people I

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work with, especially people who are

working on TED Talks, for example, is.

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Don't start on the computer because the

computer is very different energy than,

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for example, starting on a big whiteboard.

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Or for me, I take these big sheets of

white butcher paper and I stick them on

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my wall, and then I take a big sharpie

marker like this and kind of scribble

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stuff and be really rough with it.

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And from there, something

starts to take shape.

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But it allows for the creativity to

happen because what I've found is that.

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If I start on the computer, if I start

writing, then I get in this, I like

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to call it mouse mode, like I'm, oh,

should I use this word or that word?

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Oh, I forgot my punctuation, and I

get really nitpicky and I haven't even

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figured out what I really wanna say yet.

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So I like to say, stay

in eagle mode first.

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Get out, whiteboard or butcher paper,

Sharpie marker, and, and scribble.

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And then once that gels in your mind

of okay, this is my key message, this

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is the flow of how I wanna take it.

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And I'm going through multiple,

multiple sheets of big white paper.

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Maybe I have sticky notes where

I'm oh, I wanna say this one line

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and maybe I can stay see it here.

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Oh no, I'm gonna say it over

here so you can change your mind.

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Still in this phase, it's

much easier to do that.

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And then once that gels

on the paper, then I.

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Add it to my computer, and then I

create slides to help me tell that

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story, which I also is, another thing

I see people doing is they'll build

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their slides first, and then they'll

figure out what they wanna say.

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And I'm what?

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That's exactly the opposite

of what you wanna do.

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So, so finally I'll build my slides

and then I'll start rehearsing

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it and I'll give myself a healthy

amount of time to rehearse.

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And what I know is that.

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If I still feel like anxiety,

I wouldn't even say nervous.

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I would just say anxiety, it's

more than just being nervous.

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It's because I haven't internalized

the flow of the talk yet.

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I need to know what's coming next.

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How I say it, that's something a little

bit different, but what is the next step

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here in the flow of what I'm saying?

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So if I feel anxious, then I know

I need to keep working the flow.

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And, and then when that anxiety starts

to take the backseat a little bit,

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I know that, that I'm building some

fluency in what I'm doing and that

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then that excitement really takes over.

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So it definitely, people are gonna feel

nervous, they're gonna feel probably

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some anxiety, but if we give ourselves

number one, even having a process to

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know when you're ready is so important.

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It's one thing I I see people struggle

with too, is that they don't have

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a process and then they freak out.

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John (2): I think that's important.

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similar to yourself, I'm a little,

hands-on with this old school I

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like to write things down first.

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just remember being in so many

personal development seminars every

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year say, oh, you know, when you

write, we write with your heart.

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I was like, I don't know if that's

true, but get into much more of a

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flow when I hand write stuff and I

write in, sort of secret code, which

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is otherwise known as my handwriting

because no one else can read it.

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but I could still read it back

and, when I got it all down, that's

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where I'm happier to transfer it

over when I know what I wanna say.

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But there's always that trust at

the start that I always trust that

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even if I struggle to put things

together initially, the flow will

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come and that things will figure out.

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But you have to get into it and

start, putting things together.

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Is there a particular

structure that you work with?

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Not just a particular process,

but is there a structure you work

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with of creating talks as well?

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Rebecca Williams: Yeah.

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I generally use, and I also teach

what I call the first five formula and

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the first five formula I developed in

just many years of working with people

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because I kept seeing them have the same.

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Struggle over and over again.

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They would fail to

connect with the audience.

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They would fail to tell a story.

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They would fail to deliver a key message.

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They would fail to create interest

by introducing a problem, and they

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would fail to build structure like,

let us know where you're going with

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this talk before you launch into it.

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So the first five formula created.

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To meet these failures essentially.

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And it's five points and it's meant to

be delivered in the first five minutes.

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Usually it doesn't take quite that long.

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It's usually more like three

minutes, three and a half.

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But first five formula sounds

good when you have five points.

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So we'll take it like that.

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And essentially it's your, it's

your presentation first impression.

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So it's connecting with the

audience, hooking them with a story.

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Point, delivering a clear point

problem, introducing a problem so

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that they wanna listen to the rest of

what you have to say, and then agenda.

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So what are you going to say?

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set it up for us.

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that's generally what I teach everyone I

work with and I've seen it be successful.

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I've seen a lot of people.

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Say oh, well that's not

gonna work for my situation.

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Or, oh, you know, I can't do that because

I'm, I'm speaking at this conference

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or what, no matter what situation that

comes, I, I say, Hey, let, let's try this.

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And I've had zero issues.

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It's just all been people saying,

wow, that, that really helped.

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And that was so easy.

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And basically thanks for

helping me figure out.

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How to get into the talk, because

I, I would say that a lot of people,

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they know what they wanna say, but

they don't know how to get into

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it in a way that is conducive to

the audience wanting to hear more.

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So that's what I teach.

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John (2): I, I know you've taught

and, and, even guide guided coach

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people in different environments.

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Who do you most typically work with?

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What kind of clients do you, do you

most find yourself working with?

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Rebecca Williams: Yeah,

well, it, it depends.

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I work with companies and I work

with individuals and on the company

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side of things, I tend to work

with companies that have, for

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example, a lot of technical people.

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highly analytical people.

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So I work a lot in the blockchain space.

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crypto space.

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I work with a lot of scientists.

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Generally, and I'm generalizing, but

I think that most people would it.

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Technical types and analytical types,

they tend to struggle with storytelling

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because it's a more emotional style of

communication, and either it's that they

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don't see the value in it, or they just

don't know the mechanics of how to do it.

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So they're really good at relying on data.

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They're really good at using jargon

and very technical explanations.

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But as you know, it's important to hook

your audience with some kind of emotional.

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hook if, if you want them to

take in what you're saying.

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So, so on the company side, those

are the, the typical areas I work in.

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And then with individuals, I work

with a lot of people who want to, for

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example, they wanna do a TED talk or

they're delivering a talk to a group of

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people and they need help polishing it.

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They need help also with delivery.

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especially like impassioned delivery.

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I, I, I've seen a lot of.

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People who, who, let's just say

they're maybe overachievers, right?

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And so they, they write a brilliant talk.

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They don't really need help with that.

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They memorize it, don't need

help with that, but then

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they deliver it like a robot.

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and I'm like, it just,

it's not landing for me.

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And it feels like, it feels like

you're phoning it in and, that

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doesn't, it doesn't serve the purpose.

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Of the talk, it doesn't

meet your objective.

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Like you want people to do

something and you wanna move

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them so that they do something.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah,

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John (2): there is, it is interesting.

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This has come up in some, conversations

I've had recently with other guests

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as well, but this whole idea of,

The essence of communication.

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and about that it does need to be

more than just the words you say.

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Like, yes, for sure words have the,

the biggest impact in what you deliver

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in terms of how you are understood.

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But if it's a dry delivery, if it's

a bit boring, if it is an emotional,

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people aren't gonna connect with it

in the same way, then maybe not even

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gonna understand it in that same way.

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So do you think that.

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Really a talk can't be fully

effective without bringing

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in these emotional levels.

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Rebecca Williams: I love this question.

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I think I would agree.

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I think that in order to be persuasive,

if that is our goal, instead of just

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sharing information, which, any LLM

could do that at this point, right?

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Like our sweet spot, our secret sauce of

being humans is that we feel things so.

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Yes.

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In order to bring others along and

either change their behavior or

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persuade them to, to do something,

then we have to hook them emotionally,

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because that's how persuasion works.

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its Aristotle, right?

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Ethos, pathos, logos, right?

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The pathos is the storytelling.

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And if you're not speaking to the heart.

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Even if you're an analytical person

and you're listening to it, it

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won't quite have the same effect.

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Yeah.

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John (2): Yeah.

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And, and I can completely

agree with you on that.

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I think it's one of the biggest things

that tends to be missing from people's

352

:

presentations and, and perhaps that's

where people do start to get confused

353

:

into thinking that it needs to become more

of a performance to get to doing that,

354

:

rather than finding those other ways to

connect into their own message, their own

355

:

stories, and, and connect and be relaxed

and more natural with the audience.

356

:

How do we get to being that more connected

and I'd say entertaining and engaging when

357

:

we're on the stage as well, rather than

just, the, the robot delivering the words.

358

:

Rebecca Williams: Right.

359

:

Well, I think so much of it has to do

with not taking yourself so seriously.

360

:

I struggled with that a lot.

361

:

I still do.

362

:

but I, I've been working through it and

I think so often, I'm actually looking

363

:

at my, my little notebook right here.

364

:

I had a discovery call with someone

earlier today, and I'm just gonna

365

:

read a few lines that I wrote from

his mouth and he said, impromptu

366

:

speaking, I'm more nervous.

367

:

And because there are

more chances to screw up.

368

:

more chance that things could go wrong.

369

:

So there's so much pressure in those

words, and sure there are moments

370

:

in time where it's high stakes

and you have to perform, right?

371

:

But I think that there's more fight

or flight going on than is required.

372

:

I think taking ourselves too seriously.

373

:

Is, it really is the

kryptonite of public speaking.

374

:

And again, going back to Sir Ken

Robinson, he walked out on the stage

375

:

and was Hey, what's up you guys?

376

:

That is the exact opposite

of taking yourself seriously.

377

:

And he had a blast

through that whole talk.

378

:

He just cracked jokes and, and, and

also delivered a super powerful message.

379

:

I'm curious, where are we getting

these ideas that we have to be so

380

:

serious and polished and professional?

381

:

There are plenty of people

who aren't doing that and are,

382

:

who are having great success.

383

:

John (2): Yeah, I've, I've done.

384

:

hole episodes is so on this, but

this whole concept of, I think people

385

:

get trapped in professionalism.

386

:

it can become a cage of, you think

that you have to show up a certain

387

:

way in the environment that you're

in, and I can understand it.

388

:

There is such a high pressure to conform

to what's around you and even to mimic

389

:

what's come before you, what you see as

being the norms, and I think many times

390

:

people are putting on their persona.

391

:

Go to work, but that's

not who they really are.

392

:

And they don't wanna show up as

an emotional person or as a fully

393

:

expressed person because they

might be seen as unprofessional.

394

:

And I think that is something that

ultimately holds people back in

395

:

multiple ways, because, if you

wanna be a corporate mannequin or

396

:

robot and be like everyone else on

the production line coming through.

397

:

That might work to some extent, but,

what gets you noticed, what gets you

398

:

maybe standing out for leadership is

finding that way to be who you are

399

:

and be different from other people in

unique ways that will be noticeable.

400

:

it's a hundred percent

401

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah.

402

:

John (2): As well as I want to, but

do you get what I'm going with that?

403

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah.

404

:

I a hundred percent get it.

405

:

And I fully agree too that having

something to say is so important

406

:

and I think a lot of people, what

I see is they're, you said, they're

407

:

kind of hanging back because they're

I don't wanna step outta line.

408

:

Or like, there's a Japanese

expression, called the nail that

409

:

sticks out will get hammered down.

410

:

Right.

411

:

So I see a lot of this in, in Australia

they call it tall poppy syndrome.

412

:

I see a lot of this.

413

:

People are afraid to stand out

or be different or actually

414

:

have something to say.

415

:

And to me, I, I get it.

416

:

I, I understand the, I have a

lot of empathy for that because

417

:

I used to be that way too.

418

:

At the same time, you're right.

419

:

I think that is exactly what holds someone

back and what causes a lot of anxiety

420

:

and pressure and, and potentially causes

people to fall down in the moments when

421

:

they need it the most because they,

they're putting themselves on such

422

:

a, standard or something like that.

423

:

John (2): Yeah, I get, I get you.

424

:

Ultimately is that, and we judge ourselves

far more harshly than probably we would

425

:

ever, we would ever judge anyone else.

426

:

And you know, I was talking to you

about the, the story competition

427

:

on Sunday night, and I, I spoke to

all the people who were competing.

428

:

I was, I was just introducing because

I compete in a previous one, but, Of

429

:

them were saying the same thing and

all of them criticizing themselves

430

:

and actually you were great.

431

:

What, why you think it's right?

432

:

Well, the audience loved it.

433

:

People were laughing in your presentation.

434

:

Why do you not think it was good yet?

435

:

Yeah, that's what we're like when

we, when we do things like this.

436

:

So we are just looking, we're

looking for all the faults.

437

:

We're looking for, everything

that could be wrong.

438

:

We, we look at, we see a photo of

ourselves and we see all our flaws.

439

:

We, we hear our voice, and we is,

is that, is that what I sound?

440

:

We just so critical of ourselves

in so many ways that in.

441

:

But I think sometimes if we could

just see ourselves, how other people

442

:

see us, like be disconnected for,

which of course it's not possible.

443

:

I think we'd be a lot kinder probably.

444

:

Yeah.

445

:

We wouldn't be, we wouldn't be so harsh

because generally we don't talk about

446

:

that or treat other people that way.

447

:

Rebecca Williams: Exactly.

448

:

I'm curious for you, John, since

you started this podcast, and you

449

:

probably watch a lot of these videos

and you see yourself all the time.

450

:

You hear yourself all the time.

451

:

Has that self-criticism gone down for you?

452

:

John (2): Yeah.

453

:

Yeah, yeah.

454

:

Rebecca Williams: Bit

455

:

John (2): time.

456

:

yeah, I, I am not somebody who enjoys

looking at photos or videos of myself.

457

:

I'm far as far away from a

narcissist as you can get, but,

458

:

I don't worry about it now.

459

:

I think the only time I worried about

it recently was like I was doing this

460

:

thing, is that I was just kind of

bothered with my head, just sweeping

461

:

it all back, and then I watched

back some videos when I was editing.

462

:

I was like, oh no, that looks awful.

463

:

I need to stop doing that.

464

:

So it's like I still a bit swept

back, but it just looked so bad.

465

:

It's like, no, I, I, I definitely

need to stop doing that, but, but

466

:

I'm not looking at, oh, that I'm so

embarrassed or anything like that.

467

:

I'm not embarrassed.

468

:

Right.

469

:

The way I see it is I'm out here doing

something that I value doing, and

470

:

anyone who's watching or listening

hopefully is finding the value in

471

:

it, rather than spending all the

time looking at my hair thinking,

472

:

oh, he looks a, he looks ridiculous.

473

:

So if they, if they are, that keeps them

watching for a whole 45 minutes, great.

474

:

But.

475

:

you know, hopefully there's, they're

getting more out of it than just that.

476

:

So, no, I don't, I don't, I worry

about these things less and less and

477

:

yeah, and, and that kind of ties in

with the other, maybe the, the other

478

:

thing that has lessened my fears about

presenting and speaking and even things

479

:

stand up comedy or, so something I

was terrified to do until I did it.

480

:

It is just the more you

do it, the easier it gets.

481

:

Yeah.

482

:

And, and the less you do criticize

yourself, make you, my first open

483

:

mic, standup Comedy Night is a great

example of this actually, because,

484

:

several people bombed before I went up.

485

:

It's open, it's open mic,

you're allowed to bomb, right?

486

:

That's the whole point of them.

487

:

Uh, and I had given

myself permission to bomb.

488

:

I'm like, okay, if I go up and

I get no last whatsoever, I'm

489

:

in the same boat as these guys.

490

:

It's no big deal.

491

:

And I can come back and try

again if I want to, or I can

492

:

say, oh, maybe it's not for me.

493

:

That's not how, I mean,

I got a lot of laughs.

494

:

I was very happy with it.

495

:

But, I, I had full permission

to bomb, but because I'd done

496

:

that for myself, I could relax.

497

:

So there was no, no high stakes for this.

498

:

There was no reason to be super nervous.

499

:

Thing was really depending on this

other than me doing something that

500

:

I had on my bucket list forever.

501

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah, yeah.

502

:

I did something like that recently.

503

:

I did this, open mic storytelling

night here in Lisbon and I.

504

:

Part of the reason why I did it was

because I wanted to challenge myself

505

:

to not rehearse at all and just go

up and just tell it from memory,

506

:

like one and done kind of thing.

507

:

And I, I stuck to my commitment to

myself because I also didn't have

508

:

time to do a bunch of rehearsing.

509

:

So I thought, okay, I'm

just gonna go and have fun.

510

:

I got up there and I had so much fun and

I, I didn't end it the way I thought I

511

:

was gonna end it when I thought through

how I was gonna do it in my head.

512

:

and I it was funny 'cause I

was going in that direction.

513

:

Then I forgot what I was gonna

do and I was like, ah, and I

514

:

was struggling, but then I just.

515

:

I just threw something else in and

everybody laughed, and then I just

516

:

got off stage and I, I was like, oh,

I just figured that out in the moment.

517

:

And it was super successful, probably

more successful than what I was

518

:

gonna say before, and that gave

me so much confidence in myself.

519

:

And yeah, to your point about you just

get used to it over time, it's, it's

520

:

one of the things that I've noticed

too with, with students and clients is

521

:

I tell them, I say, make recordings of

yourself doing talks or doing public

522

:

speaking or whatever, and force yourself

to watch it over and over again because

523

:

you just get desensitized over time.

524

:

You're like, okay, I guess that's just

what I look like, or what I sound like.

525

:

John (2): Yeah, I think it is just

years of editing video of myself.

526

:

'cause I, I started the podcast

back in:

527

:

And, and so I just, I'm just so

used to seeing video of myself and

528

:

hearing my own voice playing back.

529

:

I, I just don't even

think about it anymore.

530

:

I'm completely desensitized.

531

:

what up?

532

:

it is because it didn't start,

it didn't start off that way.

533

:

It started up cringing and looking

at, thinking, oh gosh, I, you

534

:

know, I need to change this.

535

:

I need to hit the gym and all that.

536

:

we now still do, but, it's.

537

:

Much that's critical.

538

:

It's just, just get on with the

job that you're there to do.

539

:

Exactly.

540

:

what you're there to talk about is

more important than how you look.

541

:

And even if there are, I said this, I say

this to clients and I say this to people

542

:

in videos as well, but if your audience is

more concerned with how you look than what

543

:

you have to say, that's their problem.

544

:

Exactly.

545

:

So let them get on with that.

546

:

If they're too shallow to be able to see

past that, I dunno, a hairstyle they don't

547

:

like, or a body shape that they don't

like or whatever it is, leave them to it.

548

:

But most of the audience

will connect with what you're

549

:

saying and will, will value it.

550

:

there is a, do you, do you think about

this yourself when you're speaking, that

551

:

there's always gonna be a percentage

of your audience who aren't gonna

552

:

like you no matter what you do or say?

553

:

Rebecca Williams: Oh, for sure.

554

:

Yeah.

555

:

The people who sit the front row

with their arms crossed, the.

556

:

And it got sucky lemon taste.

557

:

They sit in the front row.

558

:

It's become a game for me

now that I just ignore them.

559

:

it's so pleasurable to just ignore

them and focus my attention on

560

:

other people who have good vibes.

561

:

yeah, it used to bother me, but you

know, again, another thing that you get

562

:

desensitized here if you do it enough.

563

:

John (2): There, there

is an element to that.

564

:

I, I do think that professional

speaking is one of the fastest ways to

565

:

advance yourself personally, not just

professionally, but personally through a

566

:

lot of change and transformation because

you do really have to work through

567

:

moving to a point where you care far less

about what other people think of you.

568

:

And you focus more on the skills and the

art of it and getting into what you're

569

:

doing, you have to get past yourself.

570

:

And that's one of the big personal

development challenges of anyone's life.

571

:

But I think professional presenting

or any kind of presenting or

572

:

public speaking pushes you through.

573

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah, agreed.

574

:

And I've talked to friends who

are 10 years, 20 years older

575

:

than me, and the one thing that

seems to be a red thread behind.

576

:

their own personal development journey

is each one of them says, oh yeah, my

577

:

life really changed for the better.

578

:

When I realized that it wasn't about

me, it's all about service, and it's

579

:

what we were talking about before,

580

:

again, in shifting that gaze away from

yourself and putting it on the audience

581

:

and being in service to the audience.

582

:

I think there's a ton of personal growth

that comes through that, and it's such

583

:

a, it's taken me a long time to get

there and I still, there's a little

584

:

bit of a tug of war with it sometimes,

but it's so wonderful to mostly be on

585

:

the other side of that struggle because

before there's just so much self-doubt.

586

:

And it wasn't fun.

587

:

it was like always this, there was always

some tragedy going on in my mind about

588

:

how terrible I was at something and ugh.

589

:

Like, who wants to live like that?

590

:

John (2): Well, one of the best things

that really ever happened when I

591

:

started my journey into professional

or into public speaking at all

592

:

really, was the guy was learning.

593

:

Presentation skills from very good

presenter, although I would class

594

:

him as being a more performer

than a connecting presenter.

595

:

but he was very good, very

slick, and, very experienced.

596

:

And a friend of mine who was an

ex-girlfriend of his, had some

597

:

video of him from when he very first

started and she said, if you are

598

:

feeling afraid, just watch this.

599

:

So we sat down together and watched

these VITs and he was terrible.

600

:

Absolutely terrible.

601

:

And, I'm not gonna name names,

I won't embarrass the poor guy,

602

:

but he was absolutely terrible.

603

:

And I said, oh my God, I thought

I was bad, but this is terrible.

604

:

And said, yeah, exactly.

605

:

You are not starting from where he is.

606

:

And look where he is now.

607

:

I was like, all right.

608

:

That, that makes me feel so much better.

609

:

Yeah.

610

:

But I see that now when people say to me,

oh, you, you, so, you find this so easy.

611

:

It's all confident and you can

just get up there and do it.

612

:

Like, yeah, but it hasn't always.

613

:

Been this, and I wish you

could see the journey.

614

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah, a hundred percent.

615

:

I mean, even, I'll bring it

back to what I wear on stage.

616

:

I remember many years ago I did

this talk and I wore all black,

617

:

like this black dress, black shoes.

618

:

I didn't, I didn't wear glasses

back then, but I was wearing

619

:

all black and that talk sucked.

620

:

It was so bad.

621

:

It was So stiff, you know?

622

:

And I had a friend in the

audience and I talked to her

623

:

after and I was like, how was it?

624

:

I said, I feel like it wasn't good.

625

:

and she said, she said,

maybe it's the outfit.

626

:

she was really direct with me and

was basically pointing something out.

627

:

I hadn't even thought about it, but I

was, I was kind of wearing armor with

628

:

that audience and now I wear really

bright colors and, not flashy, but I just.

629

:

I want you to look at me and I want you to

I want us to have an experience together

630

:

and I want it to be playful and and even

that has developed so much over the years,

631

:

John (2): finitely makes a difference.

632

:

So I've got a great episode with a lady

called Kay Korsh not that long ago, all

633

:

about this, that she helped speakers to

dress well and to look great on stage.

634

:

Yeah.

635

:

focuses very much on that.

636

:

Is well, well worth checking

out for anyone thinking Oh yeah.

637

:

Maybe the outfits do make a difference.

638

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah, they do.

639

:

John (2): When, when we connected

before, one of the things we were

640

:

talking about was, about the deficit in

communication ability in corporations.

641

:

and I'm gonna go huge deep into this, but

there was a very interesting statistic

642

:

that we were both aware of, which I

was surprised that I does find out.

643

:

But you, you were already aware of

it about, 91% of employees think

644

:

that their bosses are terrible

communicators and don't trust them.

645

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah.

646

:

I don't know about the trust piece, but

I know that, the 91% think that their

647

:

boss is, not an effective communicator.

648

:

Yeah.

649

:

Isn't that incredible?

650

:

I mean, that's a vast majority of people.

651

:

John (2): It is, and it seems to ride in

the face of all these corporations who

652

:

bring in people to do presentation skills

training, and what it perhaps suggests is

653

:

they bring people in to do the training,

but it's not really getting followed up

654

:

on, it's not really getting implemented.

655

:

Right.

656

:

Rebecca Williams: Mm-hmm.

657

:

Yeah.

658

:

Yeah.

659

:

Well, I think it goes back to a lot

of what we've been talking about right

660

:

at the beginning, which is connection.

661

:

I think there is.

662

:

I've never worked in corporate.

663

:

I'll say that right here, being

transparent, but I feel I've worked

664

:

with a lot of people in corporate

and I feel like there is this real

665

:

pressure to not show vulnerability.

666

:

Like, you've gotta just show that you

know what you're doing all the time.

667

:

This like steely face and you

have to have all the answers.

668

:

And I lived in the Bay Area for

almost 20 years and I know that that

669

:

culture especially exists there.

670

:

I had a friend who's working as a

developer and a pretty big company

671

:

I remember we were chatting about

something and I said, well, why don't

672

:

you just say that you don't know?

673

:

And he was like, oh

no, you can't say that.

674

:

I was like, what?

675

:

How is that even possible?

676

:

That there's a culture that doesn't allow

people to admit that they don't know?

677

:

Something like that seems

very unhealthy to me.

678

:

but yeah, I think there's a lot of

pressure so like leaning into the

679

:

connection piece and being vulnerable

and things like that, which I a

680

:

hundred percent believe that this

makes you a better communicator.

681

:

It's almost not welcome or it's

definitely not in practice.

682

:

Yeah.

683

:

What do you think about that?

684

:

John (2): some of that ties

into the professionalism stuff

685

:

we were talking about earlier.

686

:

But I do think there are these sort

of archetypes or of how we think

687

:

we're supposed to be in particular

situations that we tend to follow.

688

:

And they're not always conscious.

689

:

but it, it is just this, Huge

ends up being this huge pressure.

690

:

I think it creates a lot

of cortisol practically.

691

:

It just, just ends up

being massively stressful.

692

:

if you are trying to be someone who

isn't you, anytime you're trying to

693

:

show up in any environment as someone

who isn't really you or someone who

694

:

can't say, can't really express yourself

fully, if you are restricted in those

695

:

sorts of ways, it all gets bottled

up and it's gonna come out somewhere.

696

:

And so it might end up

coming out in anger.

697

:

It might end up coming out in, addiction.

698

:

It might end up it, but it will come out

somewhere and somewhere negative, the

699

:

chances are, unless you can consciously

find positive ways of moving towards

700

:

better expressing yourself and things.

701

:

Checking in more with who you really

are, but I think the only real way

702

:

to get there is to bring who you

are more into those situations and

703

:

Find your authenticity, is certainly

something, you know, the authenticity

704

:

conversation is, is something that we

would like to get into more, but, but

705

:

I think we might have to bring you back

for another episode for some of the

706

:

other things that we didn't, didn't

get to talk about today because I, I

707

:

do wanna make sure before, before we

wrap up today, that we, that we mention

708

:

your book because I think it lays out

so clearly all of the most essential

709

:

elements for professional presenting,

for being able to communicate well.

710

:

Tell, tell us, well, tell us

a little bit about the book.

711

:

Like what was the spark with that

and, who has it been written for?

712

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah.

713

:

Yeah.

714

:

Thank you.

715

:

It's called Presenting,

presenting the Art of Public

716

:

Speaking and How to Do It Better.

717

:

And I co-wrote it with a, a

friend of mine, Jeffrey Goldsmith.

718

:

And, and Jeff, it was interesting because

Jeff reached out to me one day and

719

:

he, he was like, Hey, I have an idea.

720

:

I, I think we can write a book together.

721

:

And I said, what are you talking about?

722

:

And, and he, he, so Jeff used to work

for Wired Magazine back in the day.

723

:

Jeff's like 10 years older than me,

and he used to interview quite iconic

724

:

or cultural figures like Cheech and

Chong and Alan Ginsburg, and he would

725

:

take those interviews and then turn

them into content for the magazine.

726

:

And he said, he came up to me and he

was just like, Hey, why don't I, I,

727

:

I wanna interview you about your work

and about what you do with people,

728

:

and then we can turn that into a book.

729

:

What do you say?

730

:

And I was like, oh, that sounds

like an interesting project.

731

:

And I thought it would be

fun to work with my friend.

732

:

And so we.

733

:

We took about two years and we

conducted a series of Zoom interviews

734

:

and, and I, I gave him some, some

content that I share with clients.

735

:

And, and so he would read it and then he

would just ask me questions about that

736

:

content, essentially trying to unpack

what I do, why I do it, and how I do it.

737

:

And, so it turned into this book.

738

:

we.

739

:

We took the videos, we transcribed

them, and then I sat down and did a

740

:

big editing project basically, and

put it all into a narrative structure

741

:

and chapterized it and had it made

make sense for people essentially.

742

:

And yeah, I'm really proud of it

because essentially it is, it's

743

:

teaching all the things that I teach

all my clients, and it's packaged in

744

:

a way that you can really walk away.

745

:

Learning some, some new, not only

strategies and tips, but really

746

:

mindset shifts about things, because

I think that is, it's one of the keys

747

:

to being a good public speaker, is

having the right mindset around it.

748

:

So yeah, this book is, is written for

anyone who wants to take a message

749

:

to a stage and share it with people

and, and have that message land.

750

:

Plenty of people can go on a stage and

say some stuff, but if they really wanna

751

:

make an impact and they really want

the audience to come up to them after

752

:

and say, wow, that really moved me.

753

:

That was powerful, then you're gonna

learn how to do that in this book.

754

:

John (2): Yeah.

755

:

I mean, you pretty much open the book

with saying about how being on stage is.

756

:

more about a conversation.

757

:

You're having a conversation

with your audience and then the

758

:

book goes into a conversation.

759

:

It is, you are listening into a

conversation, which I think is great.

760

:

it's a great way to feel like

you're being let in on a great

761

:

level conversation that is exactly

what you want to be learning about.

762

:

I love that.

763

:

I particularly love that aspect of

it as well because it made it very

764

:

digestible for me rather than, just

straight reading content if it was a two

765

:

way street of, content and information,

much like we're having here today.

766

:

So it's a great book and, it, really

lays out everything really well.

767

:

I love the style of it and

pretty much agree with Everything

768

:

I read in there as well.

769

:

Yeah.

770

:

Yeah.

771

:

Rebecca Williams: And

preaching to the choir.

772

:

Sure

773

:

John (2): for, for me, for sure.

774

:

But I always think, you know, that one

of the reasons why I always love to

775

:

read more things about stuff, I, it's

like, okay, it's stuff I already know,

776

:

but do I know everything I do not.

777

:

And do I sometimes hear things in

ways that help me get things in you

778

:

in different ways or see different

distinctions on things I do.

779

:

certainly your book.

780

:

Allowed that as well for me is like,

got some new distinctions on things.

781

:

so as much as you might be an expert or

know stuff, there's always more to learn.

782

:

There's always new ways of saying

things and understanding them that,

783

:

is well worth checking back in

with, with great content like that.

784

:

So I appreciate the book for our listener

who may be wanting to check out the book

785

:

and think, oh, this sounds really good.

786

:

Maybe I should take a look at that.

787

:

how can they find out

more about your book?

788

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah, well, you

can definitely get it on Amazon and

789

:

you can also find it on my website.

790

:

So if you go to rebecca williams.com/book,

791

:

you can get it there too, or

they'll lead you to Amazon.

792

:

So yeah,

793

:

John (2): I will put links in the show

notes and the YouTube description for

794

:

anyone who wants to go and check that out.

795

:

But, Rebecca, I've

loved this conversation.

796

:

There's so many questions I didn't get

to that hope to today, so I hope you

797

:

might consider coming back in the future.

798

:

Discuss some more things, but it

has been every bit as much fun

799

:

as I thought it was going to be.

800

:

So thank you for coming

and being my guest today.

801

:

Rebecca Williams: Yeah, thanks John.

802

:

Thank you.

803

:

That was fun.

804

:

John (2): If you remember one

thing from Rebecca today, make it

805

:

this connection beats perfection.

806

:

Start your next talk by connecting first

hook with a clear point and problem.

807

:

And tell us where you are taking us.

808

:

Then practice like a pro.

809

:

Build it on paper, rehearse the flow

and reframe nerves as excitement.

810

:

Try this week, open your meeting with

a question, deliver a single crisp

811

:

point, and watch how the room leans in.

812

:

When you do, tell me how it went in the

comments, or on LinkedIn if this helped.

813

:

Subscribe for more practical

frameworks every week.

814

:

Share this episode with one

person who presents often, and

815

:

if you're feeling generous.

816

:

A quick rating or review

helps more speakers find this

817

:

resource and start connecting.

818

:

For real, your voice matters.

819

:

Now go and make it land.

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About the Podcast

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Present Influence: The Professional Speaking Show
Speak to inspire. Influence with integrity. Lead with presence.

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About your host

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John Ball

John Ball is a keynote coach and professional speaker on a mission to help upcoming leaders master their communication, create impact and stand out as experts in their field.
John left the high life of his flying career to do something more meaningful to him and has since worked with several leading personal and professional development organisations as a lead coach and trainer.
The heart of everything John does involves helping people shift to personal responsibility and conscious awareness of how they show up and perform in every situation, whilst equipping them with the tools to be exceptional.
John also co-hosts The Coaching Clinic Podcast with his great friend and colleague Angie Besignano.
He lives in the beautiful city of Valencia, Spain with his husband and often visits the UK and US for speaking and training engagements. When he's not speaking or podcasting, he's likely to be out swimming, kayaking or enjoying time with friends.